1st and 3rd slide

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by AKtrumpet, May 22, 2012.

  1. AKtrumpet

    AKtrumpet Piano User

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    So what's the point in not having a finger hook on both the 1st and 3rd tuning slides? I've noticed a decent amount of horns (usually vintage) only have a hook on the third slide.

    Is there any practical purpose for this or is it more of an aesthetic issue? I use both slides quite often and couldn't imagine not having both for tuning issues.

    The last time I saw this was in Darten's pictures of Mr. Kadleck's horn at the charity concert in this picture http://i448.photobucket.com/albums/qq204/Dartendarten/DSCF0295.jpg
     
  2. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

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    I'm not sure really. My teacher has one of the very first Bach Strad ever made, quite a nice collectible. It did not come with a first valve slide but he had one installed. He strongly advised me against not having one and against lipping notes in tune, which he says is quite detrimental, especially for those whose chops are in development. I have to admit that use of the 1st slide is somewhat difficult for me, just because the hand motion is unnatural and often unsettles my embouchure. I'm working on it. It really helps with the A above the staff, which tends to be noticeably sharp, and with E (also too sharp), especially when used as the 3rd degree of the C scale in chords. I doubt that this is a horn specific issue, I had the same fingerings out of tune in the same direction by various amounts with all Bb horns I tried and with my C horn too.
     
  3. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    It all depends on how the horn was built. Older brands like Buescher and Olds and Conn had this intonation thing figured out pretty well where darn near the entire horn was very close. I can play D without slide and only really need it for C#. Everything else with the wide slotting plays where I tell it to.

    Somewhere along the line, perhaps with Bach, the decision was made to change the intonation a bit so that more notes were dead on and a few were way off. If you have one of those horns, then you truly need devices on both the first and third slide.

    The short version is, if it doesn't have one it doesn't need one. Don't make the mistake that the horn is somehow worse, because it's not. It's just different.

    Tom
     
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  4. Trumpetmasta

    Trumpetmasta Pianissimo User

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    the 3rd valve is usually out of tune. You can trigger it while playing the 3rd valve.
     
  5. AKtrumpet

    AKtrumpet Piano User

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    The problem I have with this explanation is that everyone's anatomy is different, a lot of people play differently enough that a player cannot always fully compensate for the horn's design.

    I suppose that's why this design is largely abandoned and the two hook configuration is more mainstream nowadays.

    I've played many horns with only one hook and I've never come across one that plays in-tune without me having to lip it down on certain 1&2 finger notes. But that's just me! ~
     
  6. VetPsychWars

    VetPsychWars Fortissimo User

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    You assume too much.

    Also, it matters on which horn your learned to play and how adaptable you are. I learned to play on a Buescher, I still own it, and I only play contemporary horns. Putting me on a horn with a different tuning arrangement is a complete waste of my time.

    For you? If you learned on a tight-slotting horn that has these tuning aids because of a different intonation pattern, playing my horns would likely drive you nuts.

    Again, not better or worse... just different.

    Tom
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Where does this BS come from? Trumpetmasta, you have been on my radar for a while with some pretty marginal posting. If you don't know something, then it is better to ask a question than to assume that we are all dummies and don't care. With a question your post count increases the same as posting "non-info".

    The third valve is usually in tune when used alone. If anything, the comprimise found on older instruments was to make it a bit too long to aid when using it in combination with the second or first valve. Triggering it in that case would make it even lower. This comprimise is not "necessary" any more.


    Tom explained it very well. Older instruments were designed with the first and third valve slides a bit longer than mathematically correct. This made lipping up (which is easy) slightly necessary for low E, F, A, Bb and 4th line D. Eb and Ab in the staff were spot on and low F#, G, C# and D only needed a bit of lipping down. Easily manageable for someone spending an hour or so per day on the horn.

    A comprimise? Perhaps, but not an audible one if I listen to old recordings. Like every other era of trumpet playing, the fine players developed techniques to deal with the intonation issues found on every horn.

    Modern horns need the first slide pulled slightly for E and A and the third slide pulled slightly for Eb and Ab. The first/third slides must be pulled considerably for low F#, G, D and C#. F, Bb and 4th line D are spot on.

    Why are horns built differently today? Manufacturing precision is much higher and that makes it cheaper to produce reliable slides. As the action is easier, players that do not have the chops to accurately "lip" the notes now have a chance to play closer to the correct intonation. For the pro, it is easier to play more resonantly.
     

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