A/Bb dual key horns

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Sal, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. OldSchoolEuph

    OldSchoolEuph Mezzo Forte User

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    Actually Sax was pretty effective in court, at least at first - despite his claim being absurd. The Perinet valve design was patented in 1838 when Sax was 24 and concurrent with his first patent - for a woodwind instrument. That same year, GA Besson used Perinet valves in a cornet (or something resembling one). How Sax manipulated the court to issue a finding against Besson in 1858 is mind boggling, but that is why Besson fled to England (to avoid paying) leaving his wife in France to start a "new" Besson company while he continued the old one in England. Sax must have been an amazing marketing guy (BS artist) or "Branding" expert, and simply hijacked brass instruments somehow getting people to accept the name Saxhorn like we do "Kleenex". He didn't actually build valved brass until maybe 1842, 4 years later, so both Perinet and Besson should have had basis to block Sax in court, but somehow he bizarrely prevailed and the term Saxhorn is still recognized as "the first real brass instruments" it seems.
     
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  2. iiipopes

    iiipopes Pianissimo User

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    FINALLY! Some real discussion and historical context instead of my getting bashed for no reason. As I said, his influence was significant. Thanks to OldSchoolEuph.
     
  3. OldSchoolEuph

    OldSchoolEuph Mezzo Forte User

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    Well, please bear in mind the Rowuk is right about Sax not being the inventor of modern brass instruments. Influence yes. Deservedly so - more of a debate. And lets remember that as Rowuk points out, brass bands existed before Perinet valves, at least in concept. The brass band evolved out of chamber ensembles mixing woodwinds and keyed buges, whatever you count a serpent as, and so on. The first hints are probably circa 1800, but until the Stolzel valve (probably invented by Bluhmel in another of these cases) in 1818, didn't really formulate into what we think of as a brass band with the mid-range fleshed out in cup & mouthpiece instruments. (still Sax was 4 years old in 1818) You can draw the starting line somewhere in that range. Like electronic music that is now taking hold with a new young generation, the origins are with the band "Asia" in the early 1980s (their instruments were purely electronic, no physical resonators), but will not be fully recognized as the mainstream of popular music for a while yet.
     
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  4. iiipopes

    iiipopes Pianissimo User

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    Indeed. All I ever said was that Sax had significant influence.
     
  5. LaTrompeta

    LaTrompeta Forte User

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    I think that it's because trumpet players are such As with their egos that they had to Bb-tenned.
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Because I am too lazy to scan in stuff, here is a little bit of history from various sources that do not participate in the flowery Sax stories (but do not ignore him either).
    http://www.davechilds.com/reviews-and-articles/article=the-history
    http://abel.hive.no/trompet/arban/gray/
    http://www.horn-u-copia.net/serial/courtoissn.html
    https://www.dawkes.co.uk/courtois-instruments.php
    https://www.historicbrass.org/edocman/hbj-2002/HBSJ_2002_JL01_015_Dumoulin.pdf

    There is more credit given for Sax than he deserves (in my opinion) - for whatever reason. I think that the tale of a poor unlucky guy makes a great story... It is convenient not to research more deeply and see how convention works.
     
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  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, I specialize in several forms of historical performance practice. That is why I comment in this thread at all. The Sax story is convenient and often repeated, but when we dig just a little deeper, we discover that his talent was making noise more than inventing good instruments.
     
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  8. iiipopes

    iiipopes Pianissimo User

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    Then why didn't you say so at the
    Then why didn't you say so at the beginning instead of just bashing me for no reason. As an administrator, you should know better, and you need to be more diplomatic when you chime into a thread.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Who bashed you? I just do not agree with the Sax premise and said why.

    As far as my behaviour goes, I am a member here and do not post as an admin. The admin part is only there if something gets out of hand - which is not very often!

    I am sorry that I do not meet or exceed your noble network standards.
     
  10. iiipopes

    iiipopes Pianissimo User

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    Your lack of tact is only exceeded by your sarcasm. Since your avatar says "Moderator," yes, you are held to a higher standard for the benefit of the forum, which you are not exhibiting. Yes, you should resign your Moderator status.
     

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