A couple of questions from a "comebacker"

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Eclipsehornplayer, Nov 1, 2005.

  1. Eclipsehornplayer

    Eclipsehornplayer Forte User

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    Sep 14, 2005
    Metro Detroit
    Hi all!

    I was sitting here reading through posts and had a couple of questions come to mind. In most cases I think that the only "dumb" question is one not asked, especially if one is on a quest for knowledge.

    So,

    Being that I only played up through High School when I was younger I was never acquainted with the "C" trumpet or any others that I've seen mentioned here. The only other form of horn I played was a two valve soprano bugle that I played in drum and bugle corps in the early 1980's. As I recall the horn was keyed in "G" but the fingerings were the same, of course having only two valves you could not play notes that required the 3thd valve. So repretoire was somewhat limited.

    Where can I find resources to "bone" up on my general knowledge. I assume I'll never have a reason to play anything but a Bb but would like to tweek my general knowledge a bit. So I'd like to come up with fingering charts and that type of thing for other trumpets. The 4 valve Piccolo really boggles my mind so it would be good for me to "bone" up on these things just because.

    The other question has to do with terminology I guess. I've seen a lot of reference to "pedal" tones what is this?

    Thanks for being tolerant of my ignorance. :dontknow:
     
  2. A.N.A. Mendez

    A.N.A. Mendez Utimate User

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    C horns I don't know. I'm sort of in the same comeback boat. I play what I think are pedel tones warming up. Those ones below where you shouldn't be able to go but if you get your lips real loose you can go below the register. Rumor has it Rafeal Mendez used these alot to come back from lip damage from accidents(he got hit with a baseball in the mouth at a game at the peak of his career) if memory serves.
     
  3. 11thchair

    11thchair Pianissimo User

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    Evansville In
    Not sure what the 1st question was. If it was the fingerings of the pic - then

    valves 1 to 3 are same as the Bb. Since the pic plays up an octave the 4th is an "octave" key for catching some notes below F#.
     
  4. Greg5850

    Greg5850 Pianissimo User

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    Re Mendez injuries-He was injured twice, once when he was warming up and someone opened a door into his horn (he played the gig hurt) and later when he was helping with little league, an excited youngster swung a bat and caught him in the mouth (took a year to come back)
    I think he took some lessons with Maggio, who helped many hurt players comeback. Maggio's system uses pedal tones.
    Greg
     
  5. BradHarrison

    BradHarrison Pianissimo User

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    Oct 31, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    Trumpet players approach transposition differently than tubists, for example. We play the same set of fingerings no matter what instrument we are playing. A C is open, always, no matter what horn we are playing. Tuba players have C fingerings, Bb fingerings, Eb fingerings, and F fingerings. Trumpet players transpose.

    When playing a Bb trumpet and reading Bb music(the stuff you see in a concert band or jazz band) you play the same set of fingerings as if you were playing a C trumpet and reading music in C(what you usually see in an orchestra or playing out of a hymnal with a choir). The difference is that the written and fingered C on a C trumpet and Bb trumpet are not equal. If will sound a tone higher on C trumpet than on Bb. If you were playing a Bb trumpet and looking a part in C you would have to transpose up a tone in your head(that is, if you see a C on the page you would have to play a D on Bb trumpet). It's not as complicated as it sounds, I promise.

    Other keyed trumpets work on the same principle. If you're playing a Bb trumpet but you're looking at a part written for D trumpet you have to transpose everything up a major third. If you're using a C trumpet on a D part you have to transpose up a tone.

    Trumpet play in different keys based on what the fundamental is, the lowest open note. On your Bb trumpet the lowest open note is a Bb concert, though you read it as a C. On a C trumpet the lowest open note is C concert but you still read it as a C. Does anyone of this make sense or am I just defining myself into a corner? :D

    Pedal tones: This is a little easier to define. The lowest note on the trumpet is a low F#, fingered 1-2-3, below middle C. It is possible to play lower than that but the notes below F# will not resonate the same way and F# and above. Anything below F# is considered a pedal tone. The term pedal comes from the church organ which uses foot pedals for the lowest notes.

    Piccolo: This relates to the above stuff about transposition. The Bb piccolo trumpet plays an octave above the regular Bb trumpet. Note that it's not actually easier to play higher but you can be a little more agile in the upper register on a piccolo. The lowest open note on a piccolo is one octave above the Bb trumpet. The above posters were correct that the fourth valve is for lower notes below F#. This allows them to resonate by not using pedals which don't sound very good at the best of times and sound awful on piccolo. The fourth valve lowers the instrumetn by a perfect fourth and is equal to 1-3. The fingering for low F is 1-4, for example.

    As for general knowledge, most questions have been asked and answered here and on www.trumpetherald.com. Use the search function first and then ask if you still don't understand or can't find your question.
     
  6. Eclipsehornplayer

    Eclipsehornplayer Forte User

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    Sep 14, 2005
    Metro Detroit
    All,

    Thanks so much for your replies. It is starting to make sense to me now.

    Brad,

    Thanks for your well written reply. I'll do the search and "bone up"
     
  7. Gary

    Gary New Friend

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    Nov 2, 2005
    Transposition

    I just joined the group with this idea of the necessity of transposing Bb, Eb or any instrument.

    I am a combacker 62 years after I took trumpet lessons as a 12 year old . . . so I am an old guy.

    Here is my problem with the transposition idea. A composer writes music in any key the he feels is necessary for his music. Now, every instument has a some way of producing notes that can play his music. For instance my new Bb trumpet has a 31 note range. Remembering them is not much harder than remembering the english alphabet. I have no reason to transpose any thing unless someone writes the music incorrectly. I frankly don't get it. I recall as a youngster being confused by this unnecessary confusion. I can play any note you can write in any key without any question in my mind that what I play is correct as is. The people that show fingering charts that for instance show the "C" as open pistons (play "D") are making work where no work is required. I just can't get this idea of transposing to stick to anything. If the player knows where the notes are on his/her instrument - nothing else is necessary. So an Eb trumpet blows Eb open piston and the fingering is fixed and will never change. There is never a necesssity for the Eb player to transpose anything. It is mind boggeling to me that this idea continues.
    :-?
    quote="BradHarrison"]Trumpet players approach transposition differently than tubists, for example. We play the same set of fingerings no matter what instrument we are playing. A C is open, always, no matter what horn we are playing. Tuba players have C fingerings, Bb fingerings, Eb fingerings, and F fingerings. Trumpet players transpose.

    When playing a Bb trumpet and reading Bb music(the stuff you see in a concert band or jazz band) you play the same set of fingerings as if you were playing a C trumpet and reading music in C(what you usually see in an orchestra or playing out of a hymnal with a choir). The difference is that the written and fingered C on a C trumpet and Bb trumpet are not equal. If will sound a tone higher on C trumpet than on Bb. If you were playing a Bb trumpet and looking a part in C you would have to transpose up a tone in your head(that is, if you see a C on the page you would have to play a D on Bb trumpet). It's not as complicated as it sounds, I promise.

    Other keyed trumpets work on the same principle. If you're playing a Bb trumpet but you're looking at a part written for D trumpet you have to transpose everything up a major third. If you're using a C trumpet on a D part you have to transpose up a tone.

    Trumpet play in different keys based on what the fundamental is, the lowest open note. On your Bb trumpet the lowest open note is a Bb concert, though you read it as a C. On a C trumpet the lowest open note is C concert but you still read it as a C. Does anyone of this make sense or am I just defining myself into a corner? :D

    Pedal tones: This is a little easier to define. The lowest note on the trumpet is a low F#, fingered 1-2-3, below middle C. It is possible to play lower than that but the notes below F# will not resonate the same way and F# and above. Anything below F# is considered a pedal tone. The term pedal comes from the church organ which uses foot pedals for the lowest notes.

    Piccolo: This relates to the above stuff about transposition. The Bb piccolo trumpet plays an octave above the regular Bb trumpet. Note that it's not actually easier to play higher but you can be a little more agile in the upper register on a piccolo. The lowest open note on a piccolo is one octave above the Bb trumpet. The above posters were correct that the fourth valve is for lower notes below F#. This allows them to resonate by not using pedals which don't sound very good at the best of times and sound awful on piccolo. The fourth valve lowers the instrumetn by a perfect fourth and is equal to 1-3. The fingering for low F is 1-4, for example.

    As for general knowledge, most questions have been asked and answered here and on www.trumpetherald.com. Use the search function first and then ask if you still don't understand or can't find your question.[/quote]
     
  8. oldlou

    oldlou Forte User

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    Response to Gary

    Where you are in error is in thinking that the note you are playing with all of the valves up is a 'C'. It is not. It is actually Bb, which is why your new trumpet is called a Bb trumpet. If you wish to find this out for certain go to a piano or organ, play a 'C'. Now, play what you read on the music score as a 'C'. You will find that the note played by your trumpet is one tone lower than that played by the piano.

    For many years trumpeters, clarinetists, trombonists, baritone and BBb tuba players have had to transpose what they read upward 1 1/2 tone. This means that a printed C is played as a D. They also must subtract 2 flats or add 2 sharps. This puts their Bb instrument in tune with the piano and most of the rest of any orchestra.

    For those who play from a score that is written in "concert pitch", like most orchestral players, the score is not transposed for each instrument, meaning that many of the musicians have to transpose or buy an additional instrument made in the pitch needed.

    Examples of this are the aforementioned Bb instruments, most french horns in F, most old alto horns and alto saxophones in Eb, and it gets sticky from there on, as many manufacturers have made trumpets in Bb,C,D,G, etc.. This was done primarily to aleviate the chore of having to transpose. A welcome side effect of this has been the discovery that some of the "harmony" trumpets have unique tonal qualities which many conductors/performers utilize in their performance. An Eb cornet was designed to play a full octave,( eight full tones) above all of the rest of the trumpet/cornet section. Piccolo trumpets were also made for extreme high playing.

    OLDLOU>>
     
  9. Gary

    Gary New Friend

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    Nov 2, 2005
    Re: Response to Gary

    I recommend you go to:http://www.mrnatural.net/SCHOOL/OUT/Trumpet2.html and view the Bb trumpet lined up with the piano keys. There is no question what note is what and no transposing is necessary unless you wish to complicate everthing just to make it more complex. I am not thinking 0-0-0 valve position is C. I is not - the lowest C is 1-0-1 fingering; next higher C is 1-0-0 and so forth for every note on the Bb trumpet and they never change.
    ;-)

     
  10. BradHarrison

    BradHarrison Pianissimo User

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    Oct 31, 2005
    Toronto, Canada
    Re: Response to Gary

    Gary, you're doing what tubists do! You're using "Bb" fingerings to read concert music. ie You are using a different set of fingerings instead of transposing.

    Music written for a Bb instrument sounds one full tone lower that it is written. Music written for a C instrument sounds as it is written. What you have done is designed a set of fingerings that work while playing a Bb instrument and reading concert music. However, if you were to read music written and transposed for a Bb trumpet and were to use the fingerings you're using now you would sound a full tone higher than you're supposed to.

    C on every trumpet is open(all valves up). This is the case always, no matter what instrument you're playing. If you're playing a Bb trumpet and reading Bb music C is open. If you're playing a C trumpet and reading C music C is still open. Now, if you're playing a Bb trumpet and reading C music you need to transpose everything up a tone. The C that you see is actually a D on Bb trumpet, fingered 1-3. The method you're using now still works but you'll be in trouble if you join a band or something with regular trumpet music.

    I hope that helps but I can elaborate if you're still having trouble.
     

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