A few questions... considering a new Calicchio, comparisons?

Discussion in 'Horns' started by Rob Jokinen, Dec 1, 2003.

  1. Rob Jokinen

    Rob Jokinen New Friend

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    Nov 16, 2003
    Beaverton, OR
    Hi,
    I am curious if anyone can offer comparisons regarding the Calicchio horns.

    FWIW, I'm considering getting a Classic model 1s2, but want to get more opinions before having one sent to me for trial. Currently I play a Conn V1, but at first I liked the tone, but its a bit wide and too dark for me now.
    So looking for a horn with more agility, clarity, some brightness. I want a horn that will be easier for lead style, but not be too zingy. The other thread, where MPM mentioned Bobby Shew sounds great on jazz combo as well as lead with his horn. Is the 1s2 that versatile?

    The Calicchio web page says the 1s7 is 'suitable for most situations' but the 1s2 is best for lead, and is bright. Is that only when pushed? Is the 1s2 also good for most situations?

    1. Blow resistance.
    I hear alot about the 1 vs 2 leadpipe. Can anyone compare resistance to some of the mass produced horns, tighter or more free? I generally know the blow feel of these horns.
    - Bach 37
    - Conn 1b-sp (square and rounded slide)
    - Yamaha Xeno 8335, also RGS

    2. Brightness.
    I've characterized the horns I've played from brightest to darkest. Where do some of the Calicchios fall in here?

    taken with Marcinkiewicz E3 mp.
    brightest
    Kansul Chicago
    Yamaha 8335
    Yamaha 8335 RGS
    Bach 37
    Kansul Wayne Bergeron
    Yamaha large bore 8345
    Conn V1 yellow bell square slide
    Conn V1 yellow bell round slide
    Conn V1 - rose bell
    Kanstul 1503
    darkest

    What mouthpieces also for some other opinions?

    Thanks.
     
  2. MPM

    MPM Pianissimo User

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    Nov 10, 2003
    Calicchio 1s-2

    Sure it's a versatile trpt. And all things being equal would tend to sound a little brighter than a Bach 37, and probably a tad brighter than a 1s-7.

    When you say you're playing a Marcinkiewicz E3 ... do mean E3/3C?

    Regards,

    Michael
     
  3. Rob Jokinen

    Rob Jokinen New Friend

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    Nov 16, 2003
    Beaverton, OR
    Yes, I meant E3/3C.

    Well, I called Dave today and he gave me the rundown. Man, he sure knows his stuff. I pulled the trigger and ordered a 1sZ/3LR. Now the waiting game begins.
     
  4. MPM

    MPM Pianissimo User

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    Nov 10, 2003
    Rob,

    Good luck with the new horn. Did he say how long it would take to make for you?

    Just as an FYI ... I use to play the Marcinkiewicz E3/3C. I sent it to Kanstul to copy the top for me so I could use other bb's they (Kanstul) have avavlible. You could get them to cut you one. I know they keep those things in their computer files.

    Regards
     
  5. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

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    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Hi everyone,

    I’ve been asked a couple of times privately about the 1s/2 – 1s7 difference, so now a good time to capture that topic. I have both a couple of 1s/2’s and 1s/7’s so I’ve played them both often over the years.

    MPM comments about how well Bobby Shew sounds are very accurate, I think we can call agree on that. Bobby was lucky enough ffor years to work hand in hand with master trumpet guru Bob Malone tweak ing his " Z " to just where he wanted it. Even though Bob Malone is now at Yamaha , don’t think if you order a “ Z “ trumpet you’re going to get one that plays like Bobby’s. You want a custom made trumpet in the " Z " tradition but light years better made, try Bob Reeves " V-Raptor " that what Jim Manely now plays and you can get the liteweight one now , just like Manely proto-type " V-Raptor " liteweight.

    Chuck Findley, who I think we all, can agree on, is another guy that plays great lead and inspiring jazz. has , Since 1968, played the same 1s/2 Calicchio. That 1s/2 is the same as when he got it, except for a gold plate job about six years ago.

    On the topic of Calicchio leadpipes and their differences, the number 2 pipe of course has a different taper than the number seven pipe, but in terms of measurement , the number two pipe actually measurers out to be bigger.
    I have this notion that thru the years terms like "Larger " bigger ", "freer blowing " " easier " are all mis-nommers and have been giving us the wrong discription of leadpipes for a very long time.Try this, take your tuning slide out of your trumpet and blow thru your leadpipe. It probably won't feel any different from any other brand on the market if you do the same thing with any other make.
    The actual worth of any leadpipe is in it’s interaction with the mouthpiece and bell. Like I said before, in theory, the rest of the trumpet is the same diameter round tubing. ( Yeah, I know the shape of a tuning slide does makes a difference that's why I just ordered all 8 tuning slides for my Wild Thing and all 13 " color " slides for my Super Zeus . How did anyone ever play trumpet well before the inter-changable tuning slide, heavy bottom caps, mega mouthpieces or titanium valve guides hit the market. Incredible)

    Back to the topic:

    1s/7

    This trumpet plays very evenly from the bottom of the staff all the way up past Double C. It is very even and all the notes and slots feel pretty much the same. I would describe it as holding a string of pearls by one side and letting them hang. All the pearls line up evenly and are of the same size and color. That’s what a scale feels like when you play from low c to hi c. even and consistent. The trumpet definitely has a sizzle to it, but the slots lock in and each note feels very secure.

    A 1s/7 gives the player a more “ Bachish “ feel in a very live, commercial sounding trumpet as far a feel goes. That‘s probably the only comparison with a Bach it has. It has great air flow and balance, plus can “change ‘colors easier than the 1s/2 depending the situation your playing in.

    1s/2

    Without repeating myself, this combination of lead pipe and bell, seem to really compliment each other for getting a quality, fat sound with a very efficient feel. The big difference for me is that the slots tend to get closer as you play higher. The slots or the notes get elliptical, like stacking watermelons on their sides, so that the center of the slot is very close to the nest one in the scale, yet they have a huge spread and volume because they feel very wide. To play above the staff, it takes very little effort to move to the next note or to play with the pitch center to get inflections in your playing. It will give you more freedom, to play in a singing like manner, or be able to “ swing “ harder but with a trumpet that has these tendencies, you need to hear the note before you play it or you may either slip into the pitch from underneath it , aim to high or “crack it “on take off.

    The term “sizzle “, even used a lot by trumpet player and trumpet manufacturers, really isn’t a great word to describe a vibrant trumpet tonality. Someone please write back describing the “ Sizzle “ Jon Faddis gets compared to Lin Biviano compared to Chuck Findley, compared to Auturo Sandoval compared to Doc compared to Myanard, compared to Byron Stipling compared to Roger Ingram compared to Scott Englebright, compared to Wayne Bergeron compared to Charlie Davis, Compared to Snooky Young etc. All these great player have “sizzle “to their sound, but they all definitely don’t sound alike.

    Descriptive terms like “ringing “or “vibrant‘or “big and fat “or “projecting “are better words to describe a quality commercial trumpet sound. Write back with some other ones that you like and we will start using those descriptions instead of just the over used, under meaning “ sizzle “ Give me the term that describes “ when the hair stand up on the back of your neck “ trumpet sound.

    As far a trumpet building , my words are “ efficient ‘ and “ balanced “ When I’m playing my best , The sensation I get as to the amount of effort I’m using is like I’m just “ humming “ into the mouthpiece ( amount of energy expended ) while getting great sound and agility and endurance that feels like I could last all night. I think we’ve all experience the time, when we are playing so well that we “can do no wrong “. So balance and effect really is what makes up a good trumpet that shares in the physical endeavor that needed in playing trumpet and gives you that “Vegas “ full, strong lead sound, that seems to sing over the band.

    Both the 1s/2 and 1s/7 has the potential and will do that just in different feels .What you want to do is decide what type of feel you want or would like to ultimately achieve plus how much control you want the trumpet to have and how control you physically want to have in sounding the way you expect to eventually sound.

    In a Nutshell, the 1s/2 is what I would call a more “ slippery “ trumpet than a 1s/7 and I mean “ slippery “ as a good thing were you can play lines freer , but everything is a compromise , so you’ll have a slight loss of stability to the note. Does that make sense?

    Both these trumpets can’t be compared to any “Major Player “factory trumpets that pop out a 1000 to 2000 trumpets a month. John Duda and Calicchio will probably only produce 100 trumpets in the first few YEAR ( less than 10 a month ) and probably never top 200 to 250 when everything is up and running at peak performance.


    Rob’s Mouthpiece:

    The Marc. E3 / C3 is what use to known as the “Charlie Davis “model in Joe’s Designer series. After Charlie went to Bach as an endorser and certain monetary obligations by Joe to Charlie weren’t met, Charlie took away his name rights and Joe renamed it the E3/3C. It was modeled after what Charlie was playing at the time in the mid-80’s a Bob Reeves 43 rim / M cup / 2 backbore. Charlie also played a 43 rims / S cup/ 692 bb so it a compromise between the two. I would really suggest you try the Reeves pieces with your Calicchio. The extra mass of a Reeves piece, plus what I consider to be better workmanship will make your Calicchio play much better especially if it’s fitted for sleeves so you can get just the right gap you like. If the 43 rim is a little to rounded for you, then either cut off and have Bob thread it to an under part or ask Bob for his Bach 3c rim copy. That’s what Charlie plays on now. www.bobreeves.com

    I f have a record album ( yes, a record album ) by Jack Dourghtry that features a 20 year old Chuck Findley with an all-star Los Angeles studio big band line up. (Chuck Findley, Johnny Audino, Ollie Mitchell, Paul Hubinon, Steve Madaio, Jimmy Salko, Buddy Childers) He play this singing trumpet solo on a ballad called “ Theme for Susan “ that should be the definitive description of “ Big, fat, huge, trumpet sizzle “ (he plays a huge hi A right in the middle of this ballad that actually grows louder and more intense as he holds it ) and this is what a 1s/2 can do.

    If anyone can tell me how to get to a “sound clip “that I can post. E-mail me off line. This one you got to hear.

    I’ve rambled on long enough and this topic can’t be covered in one “sit-down “so I’m off. Please let me know the feeling you get when “all the planets line up properly “and you’re playing your best, no matter what brand trumpet you play. Write back

    Larry ( posting, warts and all )

    PS - My aim on this forum is to not sell any product , but to just inform as to what I know ( or think I know ). Information should be a 2 way street so please comment to anything that gets mentioned , both for and against. I promise " NO PISSING MATCHES HERE " just an exchange or ideas and a way to meet new people. I've privately met a couple of really good and intellegent guys from this forum. So If you don't want to write back , fine, then just go practice (like the reat of us should be doing.)
     
  6. rhdroc

    rhdroc Pianissimo User

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    Nov 17, 2003
    Central Pennsylvania
    Paul Hubinon

    I know that this is a little off topic but you mentioned Paul Hubinon in your last post. Do you have any additional information about him. I realize that he passed on many years ago at a relatively young age but over the years since his death, I've often wonder about him and his playing ability.

    Thanks---<Rick
     
  7. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
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    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Hi Rick

    Paul died before I got to town so I never met him personally.

    The things I heard about him was that if he hadn't died, Chuck Findley wouldn't be a " trumpet players " house hold name, because Chuck filled the void left open by Paul's passing. He was the first call " Rock and Roll " session trumpet player. All the acts that recorded in the 60's and 70's , including Phil Spector wall of sound, want young, hip , " groovy " session horn sections recording there stuff, just the age and the look of the name bands that were recording. Goz never had a chance at that kind of work.

    I'll call a few guys tomorrow that were around when Paul played and get a better idea of his abilities. The definite word was he was monster player and as strong as a bull. I've got one picture of him. and he looked like a bull also. Long hair, big mustache wearing some sort of big brimed " Pimp " hat.

    That same theory also goes for Conrad Gozzo and Johnny Audino. If Gozzo hadn't passed away at such a young age ( 38 ) , Johnny Audino ( Gozzo's air apparent ) would have just been another face down at the musicians union. Not really, but Johnny started getting the calls that would have went to Gozzo after Goz left becasue of Audino's big sound that came close to Gozzo.

    The passing of Paul Hubinon, Conrad Gozzo , plus Pat Houston ( Elvis's lead player. His death in the early 70's let a 21 year old Walt Johnson step in to that spot and Walt's first Elvis job was the famous " Hawaii Concert " with Elvis that was televised internationally for the first time ) changed direction of a few careers.

    Pat Houston lived in the SF bay area and was killed in a car accident.
    He played lead trumpet for Elvis and lead trumpet for Don Piestrup's big band which backed up the Pointer Sisters plus countless Reno Headliners . #1 call trumpet player for all of SF / Reno area.

    His equipment

    A .459 bore k-modified Selmer Paris ( 24 b ) trumpet circa early 60's , laquer , and a bach 7c mouthpiece. That's it baby, down and dirty. He probably had order his 13 " color " tuning slides but Paris is such a long way away they probably just hadn't showed up yet and I heard his
    " Shulman System " and " Super Chops Video " was on back order.

    All the best, warts and all

    Larry
     
  8. rhdroc

    rhdroc Pianissimo User

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    Nov 17, 2003
    Central Pennsylvania
    Paul Hubinon Continued

    The reason for my interest is that supposedly he was trained by an instructor teaching at Duquesne University (near Pittsburgh). I once had a friend who studied with the same instructor and who frequently return home from Duquesne with fabulous stories about Paul. According to one of these stories, Paul had his some of his front teeth rearranged (by an orthodontist at or near New Castle, PA) into a slight V. This V shape was supposedly the "optimum dential formation" for playing trumpet. My friend's instructor at Duquesne claimed this procedure made Paul into monster player he eventually became. This theory sounded a bit crazy to me because it sometimes involved the actual extraction of perfectly fine teeth in order to achieve this optimum formation. I also heard that Paul had a range up to about high G (just below double C).

    I always wondered how much of this story was actually true and how much was fabricated.

    Thanks---<Rick
     
  9. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
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    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Rich,

    The V teeth thing is true. Paul actually had that done and it helped . What it does is funnel the air to exactly down the center of the mouthpiece so you tongue and jaw don't have to pivot or move. In fact, your tongue is best laying flat on the bottom of you mouth, out of the way.

    Another friend of mine , Roger Ingram , naturally has that type of front tooth configuration. His 2 front teeth come down and form and gap like an upside down V
    between the 2 front ones.

    He told me dentists from across the country, over the years, have asked for pictures of his 2 front teeth so client could get there teeth to match. A dentist can actually file the 2 front teeth in the upside down
    v pattern ever so slightly, becasue the nerves don't start until high up.
    ( It looks like a pyramid space has been shaped between your 2 teeth so the outer corners are longer than the inner corners . ) Doesn't sound like a very kosher dentist to me.

    A dental imperfection like this seem to really help guide the airflow.
    I think I 'vet told this story privately, but never posted it , but if I'm wrong I apologize but it pertains to this " Front Teeth " discussion

    When I was growing up in the San Francisco Bay Area the two main commercial trumpet players/teachers were Johnny Coppola ( played lead trumpet for Stan Kenton with Maynard on the Band and Woody Herman had a Martin Trumpet endorsement. He played on a Martin LB Committee that Maynard gave him that Joe Marc. has copied has in his line ) and Billy Catelano, a high note player that took Maynard's spot on Kenton's band.
    I took lessons from both these guys, ( me being Italian also, who else would I take lessons from but these 2 guys ) but mainly Billy , He's mainly famous for teaching at that time a unknown high school trumpet player by the name Jon Faddis. ( Billy brother was also my his school band director ).

    Anyway, every Sat. morning, I'd be waiting outside the room waiting for my turn following the now famous Jon Faddis. I could hear this guy rattle the walls and brake glass and then see this lanky 16 -17 year old kid walk out and we'd talk a little and he's leave and I'd go in. What and act to follow.

    One morning . I'm listening and I thought some else had taken Jon's time slot. It sounded awful in there, train wreck city. But, to my surprise , out walks Jon at the end of his lesson and walks right on past without a word, head down.

    I walk into the room and ask Billy what's up with Jon. Billy tells me that his father had brought Jon to the dentist and had his front teeth capped to get rid of the ugly chip and irregular front teeth formation.he had. Well, it dropped his range about a 1Oth and he couldn't tongue to save his life.


    That following Monday, Jon's dental caps came off, and the rest is history. At 18 - 19 he left the bay Area with Lionel Hampton's band never to return.Listen to the early Thad Jones / Mel Lewis with Jon at about 20 years old. It a little uncontrolled and raucous, but man can he play. At that time , he played a Schilke B6lb and a Schilke 6a4a.

    Wayne Bergeron and Dave Stahl both credit a chipped front tooth early in their childhood for the ability to hit Double C's while still in high school.

    I was privileged enough to get some lessons from Cat Anderson before his death and what he taught when playing in the upper register to actually close you mouth entirely and blow thru your teeth. Tongue as flat as possible.
    Bud Brisbois also said let you tongue lay flat in your mouth as you play up high. I found that only works if you have a " sp stream " type embouchure and your jaw actually acts as an air valve.
    If you pivot as you ply higher , then you tongue has to do something to restrict the air and help it to move faster.

    I know Wayne and Roger pretty well in fact one of the worst jobs I ever had was a Big Band cruise ship , Vegas type show , back in the mid 80's were the trumpet section consisted of Roger , Wayne and myself. Rich Bullock played bass trombone , he had just come off Buddies band lat tour and the lead alto player Danny , left the cruise mid tour to play lead alto for Basie's Band.
    This big band had really some great players with alot of experience.
    It was so boring , we would fit over who got to play lead trumpet on " Sting of Pearls " and my Grandmother could sing and dance better than most of those acts but LA had a Musicians Union Strike going on at the time and jobs were scarce.

    One night , Roger , out shear frustration, ( plus there was an open bar on the ship ) takes the solo in " In the Mood " up and octave, much to the chagrin of the band leader then Wayne has the solo in a 40's tune called " Marie " and in the middle , he takes it up and octave, just to really piss off the leader, That kind of stuff happened every night just to relieve the boredom. Another thing that happened every once in a while we would play the opening to " "Pennsylvania 6500 " in octaves with Roger ,Wayne and I alternating on who's going to play the exposed High Bb at the beginning or the tune over the other two playing the Bb above the staff under him then cascading down to earth with the opening. You should have seen the " blue hair " spin around and the scrimp cocktails fly on that one. Yeah, I know , pretty immature stuff, but we were young and immature. We promised the band leader every time it would never happen again, but we lied.

    Both those guys just about put a hole in the side of the ship every night. I not only got a trumpet lesson during that cruise , but heard great " road stories " that can't be printed in a public forum.. Wayne had just left Maynard's band and Roger had just left a lead trumpet job in Las Vegas. The band leader hated us all, but was stuck with us for a while. I had the privilege of being the first fired. I guess my Hi Bb was the weakest of the 3 , because I know I'm better looking that those other guys.

    Please, I'm not comparing myself to wither of those guys. They are immense talents , both deserve the recognition they've achieved. Wayne's a great guy, he lets me wash his car on Weds. and Sat. and I can polish his Kanstul trpt. every 2 weeks for him if I remember to wipe my feet at the door. Roger , whose back in LA after a long stay in New York , now returns every 3 rd phone call , it used to be every 5th phone call so I do feel blessed.

    Please, don't go to any dentist and change the configuration of your front teeth. There a many more great player with normal teeth that play wonderfully. A chipped tooth is no guarantee of ' trumpet stardom " In fact, Maynard front teeth are all implants , ( late 60's ) and his new set are smooth , round and even.

    Check this album cover showing Maynard's new choppers.
    http://maynard.ferguson.net/images/albums/cham2.jpg

    It did take him a while to re-adjust , but some of his best work MF 1, MF 1, MF - live at Jimmy's are with his new ones . You can hear the difference from his earlier sound of the 60's ( Live at Newport ) The only difference in equipment was the throat in his mouthpiece went from a 25 on his Giardinelli MF 1 ( started playing that one in 1962 ) to a 19 on his Jet Tone which he played in the late 60's early 70's . He played his FBi model ( Ferguson, Bell Inc. ) mouthpiece between those and I don't know what size hole it had. That's because his resistance factor changes , so to feel like he was putting the same amount in air in the horn, the lack of resistance his original teeth gave him, no had to be transferred to the throat of his mouthpiece Bessie he had more resistance in his mouth. Remember my key words " Balance and Efficiency " those physical laws eve apply to Maynard. Maybe someone who has one could write in. Plus I believe he went from playing a Conn 38 B trumpet to his Holton line after his implants but I don't know that for a fact. Conn 38B - .438 bore Holton Maynard Model - .468 bore .

    Jim New at Kanstul's has a scan of a FBI and I'll give him a call an ask sometime today. I have no life , as you well can see.

    Larry Gianni

    Double Gold Plated Conn Director , heavy bottom caps on 2nd and 3rd valve only , 13 " color " tuning slides , Malone pinky ring , titanium valve guides , amado water keys installed at exactly 13 degree's so they are exactly parallel to the ground when I play
    reversed blackburn leadpipe , double annealed mouthpiece receiver, Harry James false teeth valve tops

    Jet Tone Mf 1 with Bach 1c rim , cut for sleeves fitted with Prana backbore, bent 9 degrees up and t the left, 9 throat. ( Dave's cat told me to do that )
     
  10. MPM

    MPM Pianissimo User

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    Nov 10, 2003
    Bob Reeves Mpc's

    Rob,

    I agree with Larry (although its all a very personal thing) that the Reeves 'pieces might be a consideration when you get your horn. 43 or 43W rim.

    Seeing as Larry has mentione Chuck Findley ... www.chuckfindley.net ... Readers ... if you don't already have his CD "Star Eyes", get it! There are also some photo's on the great LA studio days!

    Hey Larry when you mentioned getting that "Las Vegas Lead Sound" ... You "know" what horn most of those guys are playing ... :D ( Sorry had to toss that in there. )

    Michael
     

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