A True Cornet Tone?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by note360, May 27, 2008.

  1. note360

    note360 Piano User

    Oct 16, 2006
    In a room in a house
    Does any one have any suggestions of things to listen to to get this tone into my head? I love what i hear, but I want some solid recordings or videos. Thank you! Reccomend away.

    Also, I guess mouthpeice becomes an issue esp with cornets. I am going to see if Mark Curry can make me a nice custom cornet piece (due to various issues). Does any one have cup suggestions?
  2. screamingmorris

    screamingmorris Mezzo Forte User

    Apr 4, 2007
    The mouthpiece choice is extremely important in getting a rich cornet tone.

    Basically, the rule for cornet mouthpiece is to get one that has a deep "V"-shaped cup (not "U"-shaped cup).
    (But many people do not follow that rule, so each player should just play whatever works best for himself.)

    Curry makes 2 standard cup depths for cornet:
    Cornet Mouthpieces

    I wanted to get a cornet mouthpiece that has same cup diameter and rim contour as my Weril W46 trumpet mouthpice (copied from a Bach 7E but slightly shallower and with slightly tighter backbore than the Bach 7E) so I just use a Bach 7 (no letter after the number) cornet mouthpiece.
    It is fairly deep and almost "V"-shaped.
    It is the deepest mouthpiece that I can halfway control on my .485 bore Conn 5A cornet.
    If I use a .460 bore cornet I can handle a much deeper mouthpiece.

    Some *great* cornet mouthpieces with *very* deep cups are the Yamaha short-shank.
    Short Shank
    The Yamaha 13E4 and 14E and 16E are extremely deep and mellow (with #16-#18 throats), while the 11E4 is fairly deep (with #22 throat?), but not as deep and mellow as the first three I list.
    The Yamaha 11E4 has a cup diameter slightly smaller than a Bach 7, although Yamaha has a tendency to claim that it is the same diameter as a Bach 7.
    I'm guessing from my short trial period with them that the 13E4 is closer to a Bach 7 diameter? So the Yamaha 14E might be close to the Curry 5C diameter you are used to?
    The Yamaha 13E4 and 14E and 16E are perhaps 50 percent deeper than a Bach 7 (no letter), according to the general impression I got when I tried them briefly.
    I would greatly recommend the 13E4 and 14E and 16E cornet mouthpieces, and even the 11E4, to anyone who is using a modern cornet with a .460 bore, since the smaller cornet bore balances the great depth of those mouthpiece cups to produce a nice tone.
    But I wouldn't recommend the Yamaha 13E4 and 14E and 16E for vintage cornets like mine which have massive .485 bores, because the combination of the deep mouthpiece cups with massive cornet bores makes for difficulty in control (and it will sound like you are playing a trombone :D).

    Bore size of the cornet can also affect the tone.
    I think a .468 bore (and larger) sounds more cornet-like than a .460 bore.
    For example, a .465 bore Holton 603 sounds richer than a .460 Holton 602.
    But that apparently is not necessarily true of all cornets.
    Dale Proctor who posts here has a large-bore shepherd's crook Bach 184 that is only about a .462 and he says that the tone is incredibly beautiful.

    By the way, if you want to get a sound somewhat like a cornet or flugel from your trumpet, Curry makes the great "TF" and "TC" trumpet mouthpieces.
    Trumpet Mouthpieces, Standard Series
    "TF" = trumpet to sound like flugelhorn
    "TC" = trumpet to sound like cornet
    Since you usually play a Curry 5C on your trumpet, I think you would get a real *thrill* out of trying a Curry 5TF that has the same diameter and rim as your current mouthpiece.
    It is *very* deep with a convex contour in the cup.
    The TC cup is somewhat shallower.
    I played the 7TF for a few days and it was great (although you should expect your range to drop as much as an octave because of the cup depth).
    The "TF" mouthpiece cup will give your trumpet a tone that is "mellow to the max".

    - Morris
    Last edited: May 28, 2008
  3. Pedal C

    Pedal C Mezzo Forte User

    Jan 24, 2005
    A good place to go for sound would be British Brass Bands (Black Dyke Mills is one) or a soloist like Roger Webster. I can't recommend anything specific off the top of my head, but between YouTube and Google, that should get you started.

    As far as the mouthpiece, it can take some experimenting to find one that's a good match for your cornet AND gets the sound you want. The Wick 4B is common in Brass Banding (at least that's what I've been told)...I've also tried the 3B and 2B. For whatever reason, on my particular cornet (and my chops), I sound tubby on the Wick mouthpiece, but I can get a sweet "cornetty" sound on a Bach 2 1/2 C. It's really kind a of a shot in the dark at first. I also have one of those Yamaha short shank mouthpieces (I forget exactly what size)...it played really nicely, but mine has a very strangely shaped and uncomfortable rim (for me, anyway).

    Good Luck!
  4. nordlandstrompet

    nordlandstrompet Forte User

    Apr 5, 2008
    I norwegian Brass Bands, the main standard is Denis Wick, normally 4B and 4.
    One of the reasons is that the cornet section should blend with each other.
    Roger Webster (mentioned above) has developed his own mouthpieces in cooperation with DW.
    Those mpcs are marked i.e. RW4
    Deniswick.com*:*Mouthpieces*:*Bb Cornet
    If you don't play in a cornet section, you have, unfortunately, too many choises:-)
  5. Richard Oliver

    Richard Oliver Forte User

    Jul 18, 2006
    Casper, WY
    Check out iTunes for Grimethorpe Colliery Band and Black Dyke. As far as mouthpieces go, I own a Wick 4 and 4b.
  6. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

    Jul 20, 2006
    Heart of Dixie
    Your optimum mouthpiece may depend on the cornet you're playing. Some work well on specific horns, and others don't. I tried to use a Bach 3C on my 184 (since that's what I used on trumpet at the time), and the results were terrible. The horn was thin-sounding and didn't play evenly in tune. I tried a few others, and finally bought a Bach 6. That was the ticket for me - a very versatile piece. I typically use it for most general playing, especially when playing in a mix of trumpets & cornets. It has a nice cornet sound, but will project a little better than a V cup. For brass band, I use a Wick 4B, a very big, deep, open mouthpiece. It has a very reserved, rich, cornet tone, and is great for all-cornet sections and solos. Of course, the horn and mouthpiece are tools to help produce that "cornet" sound....the player has to do his/her part, too...
    Last edited: May 28, 2008
  7. chris_tpt

    chris_tpt New Friend

    Apr 16, 2008
    Queens, NY
    I don't think I can add anything to the great advice already given here, except to try different mouthpieces until you find a good match for the cornet you have (actually, this too was already said). I went to Dillon's with my Bach 25 (large bore) cornet and tried a bunch of mouthpieces. I finally found a Laskey 60DB that was a great match for my horn.
  8. note360

    note360 Piano User

    Oct 16, 2006
    In a room in a house
    The main problem is my cornet/the one i'm getting is an older ambassador, which means I cant just drop in any mouthpiece I want. I am lucky it is being shipped wiht an Olds 3 (thank you) so I will atleast be able to play it.

    From here I see I have options. Mark curry, A new receiver, a warburton (hahahaha if only i had the money), or a flugel mouthpeice (which I am kind of skeptical about).
  9. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

    Jul 20, 2006
    Heart of Dixie
    Well, an Olds 3 sure won't give you the core sound you want. I used to own one of those "old Olds" cornets with the non-standard mouthpiece receivers, and a Bach taper (if i remember correctly)flugelhorn mouthpiece did fit. Problem is, the backbore of the flugel mouthpieces I tried didn't work well with a cornet and created all sorts of intonation problems. Nice tone, though....

    A standard cornet receiver might be the cheapest fix - then you can experiment with off-the-shelf cornet mouthpieces instead of having a custom mothpiece made that costs more than the horn's worth.
  10. screamingmorris

    screamingmorris Mezzo Forte User

    Apr 4, 2007
    How expensive is it to replace a receiver on an Ambassador?
    I have no idea because I have never had it done, and I doubt that anyone in my city is qualified to do that sort of thing.
    If it is more than $100, then wouldn't it be cheaper to resell the older Ambassador and get a post-1956 one for $100?
    Or are the pre-1956 Ambassadors better quality than the post-1956 ones?

    - Morris

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