Adhesives

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by camelbrass, May 28, 2005.

  1. camelbrass

    camelbrass Mezzo Forte User

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    Nov 5, 2003
    Dubai, UAE
    Hi,

    Being an absolute Philistine when it comes to things technical, why haven't we seen the use of adhesives in trumpet building? I guess the most obvious place would be in bracing where the heating/cooling process can produce stress in the metal.

    Regards,

    Trevor
     
  2. frank

    frank Piano User

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    May 28, 2004
    Berlin, Germany
    Maybe because it's the most solid way to do it? And maybe because it's compatible with the galvanizing process afterwards?
     
  3. Cornet1

    Cornet1 Pianissimo User

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    May 22, 2005
    Essex, England
    Trevor,.....an interesting and complex question....The following just as it comes without any particular forethought;......

    I feel it is virtually certain that all of the main mass producers have tried various gluing and bonding methods,...the fact that none apparently uses such means is probably because of a basic inefficiency in workflow using adhesives. The Boosey and Hawkes Co. here in the UK have certainly been 'in the know' about the latest epoxies and tube joining revolutions of the 1970's,....they were once part of 'TI' ,..the 'Tube Investments' conglomerate. Also, during that period they experimented with revolutionary methods in every area of brass instr. production including the use of ultra high pressure water forming and alternative metals and alloys for parts.

    The fact is that 'glueing' a brass instrument together is probably a much longer operation than good old fashioned soldering, which in teh hands of an adept worker is astonishingly quick...if you ever get to a factory to watch the process you will see what I mean.....and, 'time is money'.

    Interestingly, if one looks at other tube product production, such as bicycle frames, it is noticeable that while bonding methods were heralded as the next big thing, they have not actually become mainstay in any great degree and were quickly overtaken by other manufacturing methods which offered joining as a by-product,....metal matrix technology and polyester and alloy monocoques come to mind.....

    So,..perhaps we will NOT ever see bonding in brass instr. construction but perhaps, more excitingly, we may see the moulded, metal matrix, internally tensioned, die-cast trumpet!!!......perhaps with streamlined styling and incorporating microchip intonation and vibrato modes,...and carbon fibre 'auto-muting'...and variable bell flare,....and....
     
  4. mike ansberry

    mike ansberry Forte User

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    Dec 30, 2003
    Clarksville, Tennessee, U
    I don't know much (anything) about space age adhesives, but I do know that you have to be able to take brass instruments apart fairly easily to repair them. Would they come apart easily if they were glued together?
     
  5. Tootsall

    Tootsall Fortissimo User

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    Oct 25, 2003
    Yee HAW!
    I believe that most adhesives have a fairly "soft" or maleable sense to them.... they (adhesives = glue) are not "metallic" and so do not transmit vibration as easily as metal to metal connections.

    Yes, some adhesives can be fairly hard, but then they aren't repairable (as Mike indicated).

    Just my thoughts.
     
  6. Cornet1

    Cornet1 Pianissimo User

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    May 22, 2005
    Essex, England
    Hello 'Tootsall' and mike.....

    The last part of my post was actually a bit 'tongue in cheek'....as I'm sure you gathered....However, when I saw your mention of repair and dissasembly it immediately occured to me that were trumpets to be made by the 'modern' methods which I mentioned then they would be vastly more durable and very 'proof' against the typical sorts of denting and bending trauma with which all us brass players are so familiar!......so they may not need to be able to be taken apart for repair in a conventional way......actually teh more one mulls over the idea the more fascinating it becomes!.......regards, Bob
     
  7. Tootsall

    Tootsall Fortissimo User

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    Oct 25, 2003
    Yee HAW!
    Hmm... carbon fiber trumpets?
     
  8. camelbrass

    camelbrass Mezzo Forte User

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    Nov 5, 2003
    Dubai, UAE
    Thanks guys,

    It's just that we still seem to be in the dark ages when it comes to making trumpets. There was a thread on one of these sites a while ago about innovation and although people had suggestions, to be honest, most of what's being done today has already been done at some stage in the past. I have an old cornet with a broken brace and I got to thinking about adhesives...if we can put cars and planes together with them why not trumpets? It must be one of the few 21st century industries that still uses solder guns and jigs to hold the whole thing together so that it can be put back together under tension!!! Same with valves, or what they're made from...surely a preformed synthetic valve that doesn't need to be oiled. What about ceramics?

    Look I'm sure what I'm really talking about here is economics. We've all gotten used to paying $2,000 or less for a trumpet and the R&D would kill a small company. But what if Bach or Yamaha made a stress free trumpet that had 'frictionless', non oil valves? I haven't even started on intonation and tuning issues..I think that this is the real 'art' side of the construction, for this I think Dave Monette, Bob Malone, Cliff Blackburn etc probably hold the patents.

    Just a few thoughts.

    Regards,

    Trevor
     

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