Air Support/Faster Air

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by eliserachel, Nov 30, 2014.

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  1. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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  2. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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  3. Smrtn

    Smrtn Pianissimo User

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    I think you're confused by terminology

    The idea of fast air/slow air is really quite simple and logical.
     
  4. Smrtn

    Smrtn Pianissimo User

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  5. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Smrtn, your fluid dynamics physics stop working at the lips. Once the standing wave gets started there is little air that goes through the instrument. Others have pointed this out. The "fast air" / "slow air" concept is useful for just that--a concept.
     
  6. Smrtn

    Smrtn Pianissimo User

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    Did you look at any of those physics links? If not, then please do. It's physics after all. I agree with the fact that little air actually goes through the instrument, but that isn't what these physics principles refer to anyway. One's lip aperture is the smaller space through which the air passes from the larger space. The air must travel faster according to fluid dynamics. I've posted a couple of credible links to support this. What I think has happened is a sort of group think on your part and others which isn't backed up by any evidence, and seems to be a belief not based in anything but belief. Conversely if you or anyone can provide evidence that I'm wrong, I'll happily admit I'm wrong, and then I'd have learned something.
     
  7. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    My dear friend,

    For the last 36 years, I've been a practising chemical engineer; and lead process engineer of major international projects for the last 20, mostly as principal process engineer. For the last 15 years I've spent most of my time guiding the design of major gas plant and international high pressure distribution systems. I do not think my Clients would have entrusted me with the design of knocking on for $25 billion worth of capital plant (so far) if I was inclined to 'misunderstand' elementary fluid dynamics.

    And I've played the trumpet for considerably longer.

    Now I'll say this once so listen carefully. For a given pressure differential between two volumes connected by a small orifice, the gas velocity cannot increase as the orifice decreases as this would (amongst other things) contravene the first law of thermodynamics. In fact it must decrease as non-recoverable energy loss through friction etc becomes increasingly dominant.

    Besides which since for about half the time you're playing a note, the trumpet is blowing the air back into your face. I do not believe for a moment that you have the remotest idea what gas velocity means in this context.

    Now having digested that, go back and read Rowuk's postings again. He's not a chemical engineer, but he knows far more about the art of trumpet playing than you or I will ever know. And on these air movement issues I find his views entirely consistent with the areas of physics that I specialise in.
     
  8. Smrtn

    Smrtn Pianissimo User

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    How long you or I have played trumpet is irrelevant. Are you saying that the following diagram is incorrect?

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  10. Comeback

    Comeback Forte User

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    The more I read this thread, the more I like Solar Bell's post!:thumbsup:
    Jim
     
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