An Holistic Approach to Stuck Slides

Discussion in 'Trumpet Repair and Modification' started by trumpetsplus, Oct 31, 2014.

  1. Reedman1

    Reedman1 Piano User

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    It's a dialect thing. It's like submarines vs. hoagies vs. heroes. Americans say "a holistic" and British-type English speakers say "an holistic". It's hard wired. Word.
     
  2. J. Jericho

    J. Jericho Fortissimo User

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    I use the term "bearing surface" because both movement and friction are involved. We could use a gasket or seal on the second valve crook and not have a slide (Notice the term "slide", which implies both contact and movement.), but the method of attachment would be more complicated. We could instead just solder the second valve crook in place, ensuring a seal, but the practicality of access for cleaning would be compromised, to say the least. Also, the soft material seals/bearings you suggest would still need lubrication in order to function properly, and the washer rings, being softer than brass, would wear more quickly, requiring more maintenance than the much larger area of brass tubing (which spreads the forces of friction, rather than concentrating them in the small areas of contact that seals would entail) separated by lubricant alone. Absent maintenance, these seals, with the help of moisture in the system, could seize anyway, requiring repair and replacement. It would be interesting to see a successful alternate way of dealing with this, but, in the process, unlike some other laws, the laws of physics cannot be broken (Believe me - I've tried!).
     
  3. J. Jericho

    J. Jericho Fortissimo User

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    It is correct English, however. :-)
     
  4. Peter McNeill

    Peter McNeill Utimate User

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    We all know that it is just the rebellious colonials - changing the easiest thing they can - the language.

    It is not just dialect :
    Dr Who dalek photo - Bing Images

    I am with Ivan - the New Zealanders are smart, independent, and respectful of how language is used.

    Back on topic -
    I have had slides aligned after sticking, with nothing to do with lubrication. They were greased, but still got stuck (or were sticky
    The Techie did the right thing, and checked the horn, when it came back, the slide was like butter.

    I have had a main tuning slide moving out by it's own accord, and the thicker slide grease helped, but when I gave it to the Techie and explained my problem, he fixed it very quickly - just a touch of mis-alignment to help hold it. He had a series of options, and explained what was best, and what would be easiest to do. A good Instrument Tech is just like a good friend, when you need them, you know you can rely on them.

    BTW my Tech serviced my Taylor when I first got it, he stripped it, and put it on calipers for his own interest. He showed me, the instrument was accurate to 0.001 inch (accuate to 1 Thousanth of an inch) on all slide alignment. He said he had never seen this accuracy of alignment and build on any instrument in his life. The instrument is the heaviest I have, but everything moves like butter. Any I am the second owner - the first owner did the right thing by me.

    I am sure that there are thing that some manufacturers could do to make things work better - interesting to see where the instrument go next.
    Manufacturers like Karl Schagerl and George Schlub and Ivan Hunter will the ears of the players, and willing to have a go at making something.

    Valve manufacturers have a lot of investment in their technology - surely things can be better, and especially for student horns, but there needs to be a shift in what is acceptable by players. Maybe the Plastic horns, are the wedge to help shift the yard-stick.

    I remember when the Rotary Mazda motor was going to the new efficient motor, and the Wankle Motor.. even the Wankle was a 1920-30s German design, not made into commercial reality until 60s-70s. How long before we see better efficient piston designs in trumpets??
    Great thread.
     
  5. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    It could be some time. I've worked with various multiport valve designs for process industries over the years, some costing $250,000 and more a shot, with all sorts of sealing and lubricating arrangements, and just about every exotic material going.

    The beauty of the traditional Perinet valve design is its great simplicity and time-proven 'fitness for purpose'. The only argument against it seems to be that they can stick a bit if they're not looked after. Tell me. How on earth is making them more complicated going to fix this?

    At the risk of going a bit Zennish on this, isn't the art of trumpet maintenance part and parcel of the discipline of our calling? Anyone who can't get their head around spending a couple of hours a month taking care of their kit, is surely better suited for other things. Like TV dinners and karaoke.
     
  6. Peter McNeill

    Peter McNeill Utimate User

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    I love Karaoke...

    and I like to maintain all my gear - I have thrown a new fishing combo overboard, when it failed under pressure, when the Big one hit. Zero tolerance for poor quality - and I do maintain my gear well.

    But surely design can be improved to reduce failures - that does not mean No Maintenance - just a better design. MAW valves are an example of something new to attempt an improvement. I suppose my point is that one of my horns (top line shelf) is made absolutely accurately, and plays wonderfully - but cost a lot of money.

    The Tromba cost a "Dinner for 2" at a modest restaurant, and plays OK. Almost same design overall. Somewhere slides and piston designs will become more reliable through design - either materials - Teflon, plastics or machine tolerances, or some novel idea from another manufacturing stream....

    I was surprised to see my Leadpipe on my Taylor was Rifled - (had a twisting set of grooves running through it) ---- innovation will always be adopted if costs and convenience are included in the equation.

    Stuck slides - my Tech benefits.
     
  7. Peter McNeill

    Peter McNeill Utimate User

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    I love Karaoke...

    ... duplicate post
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  8. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    I've no doubt your maintenance credentials are impeccable, Peter.

    Unfortunately I don't have access to a tech.

    Which is one reason my Wild Thing 1st slide is really getting to me. It's always been a bit gritty through the travel and jags in the closed position just enough to make it practically non-adjustable when playing. It's pretty well unblemished and underused for its age so I'm fairly sure damage isn't the issue. I've rubbed it down to bright and relubed just about every month for the last year. Today, I must admit I resorted to a bit of hand-lapping with a polishing paste to try and loosen it a bit. Nervous doing this with lightweight tubing.

    Advice appreciated.
     
  9. gordonfurr1

    gordonfurr1 Forte User

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    The "h" in holistic was originally silent. When a silent "h" follows the article, the article reverts to "an" instead of "a". Absolutely correct grammar.
     
  10. Peter McNeill

    Peter McNeill Utimate User

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    Hi Seth,

    My only advice is to not go lapping the slide too much. I have learned by seeing what my Techie does, that the alignment of the tubes is the most common issue, and sometimes a little mis-alignment can be beneficial. Of course there are other causes, minor corrosion, metal imperfection from damage or storage etc.

    Sometimes some damage from dropping can cause a sluggish slide. If I have removed and greased it, and it is sticky, then there is a problem. I would look at getting some advice from a Techie.... maybe Skype Ivan or a trusted Techie to take you through what to look for.

    My issue with lapping the slide, without identifying what may be the cause, is it may change the tolerance, and you can end up with leaks in the slide. I know I have to use a thicker grease on some slides on horns that leak moisture out of the slides.

    On the Bach Strad 3rd dump slide - There is a trade between slide ease of movement, and grip. I find if it is perfect, then the dump slide moves out if I close the 3rd valve and pull the slide back... so over 2 or 3 movements, the tuning goes on the 3rd slide, then the dump slide drops off. A thicker grease solves the problem, but makes it more fiddly for the dump slide to be removed... That is a design issue for me with the Bach Strad..

    This is what I think the Bach Strad should look like. :cool:

    [​IMG]
     

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