Anyone Know anyone that can add Garland to a bell?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    "Once you start seriously calculating the cost of business, you will see that those prices that you think are fair can only be reached if one steals development and ideas from the true innovators." -rowuk


    I question whether this couldn't be thought a fool's marketing as well, Robin. If it's 'sound' that defines what innovation is- hasn't it all been done before, a miilion times over; a million different ways. Seems innovation, or R&D is simply a Builder's pursuit of co. signature, in and of an existing sound. An interpretive exercise, you understand- that could well be achieved from Player-perspective, with an existing instrument. Particularly in light of the myriad mouthpieces available.

    This not discounting the fact, that construction has obviously been improved on. Or suggestive that Builder artistry is necessarily, redundant: or beyond a Player's discernment. Wilmer's 'Exasperation' thread prompted my realization. In any event; nobody can be innovative in a vacuum. All we can hope to do is 'steal'. :)



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    Last edited: Dec 18, 2008
  2. et_mike

    et_mike Mezzo Forte User

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    Yep. :thumbsup:
     
  3. BrassOnLine

    BrassOnLine Piano User

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    Well, natural trumpet makers use to do such things.
    Take a look to my site and see what I do.
    Don't know if David Maller still on duty. Bob Barclay is in Toronto, which is the closer to the USA
    Best regards !!!
     
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  4. Ed Kennedy

    Ed Kennedy Forte User

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    Ken Larson is in Michigan and he does great work.
     
  5. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    I lambasted them for gold plateing for vanity alone for a child or young man. I figure if the kids in H.S. he should be willing to work for something that are not needed! IE If he is alergic to standard mouthpiece then yes MOM and Dad should pay for the gold but if he want's it as status symbol he should work for it! I had to buy my own car , pay for my own insurance and pay rent when I was not in College and things like that. It tought me the value of a dollar and that life is not a free ride. Christmas and Birth Day's I got gifts the rest of the stuff I wanted that I did not get then I bought myself. My Mom and Dad never bought me any ear rings, never paid for a tattoo, they bought me a trumpet and a mouth piece their is no way that Dad would have sprung for a gold plated mouth piece just because his vane son and yes I was vane wanted to show off. I knew plenty of kids that had snake skin sneaker's, or their parents bought them high end sports car's brand new and for the most part no one liked those guy's and no respected them. Half of them had felony charges due to drug's,rape,DUI etc.....It was a compination of never being told no and being given everything on a silver platter. So I was not lambasting anyone at all. I have three boy's of my own and if I won the lottery tomorrow I would not raise them any differently then I am now. They would all have to work hard. Like I said in the thread about the mouth piece if he was allergic to standard mouthpiece plateing materials I would not hesistate to get my son a gold plated mouthpiece. By the way my 10year want's a gold plated mouth piece and I told him no! I did offer to use my debit card to order one for him as long as he paid for it out of his money. Yes he has more then enough money on hand for a mouthpiece gold plated. I pay him an allounce for chores and he is good at saveing it. He decided that he did not need a gold plated mouthpiece if he had to pay for it himself. Now keep in mind he plays on a custom made mouth piece with interchangeable back bore's. I did not make him pay for that because that is the best mouthpiece for him currently and he can build on it with different tops latter. It is my job to help him get gear that is going to work for him so he can be his best. It is not my job to stroke his ego or pay for his ego to be stroked he can do that on his own! So that is why I said what I said I too have a son that wants a gold mouth piece and I told him no as well!
     
  6. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    I will say this as well their companies makeing some crazy cool trumpets with lot's of charter like Taylor but all their cool stuff is $4500 and up I believe. Their affordarble stuff like their calaberation line are almost devoid of anything stimulateing to look at. I sure they play like a dream and sound like it too and $1850 that is a great price but does not stand out visualy from anything else in that price point! Look at all your high end trumpets from say 1920-1945 they all had absolutely beautiful engraveing and all of them where what we would today call "Pro" models etc.....Anything less then that level of engraveing and artistry is just not up to par. It was not uncommon to see silver,gold and pink gold all throughout the engraveing if it was flower petals and such surrounded by either silver plate or lacquer. I saw one Vega on Ebay that was had alternateing paterns of GOld and Silver in an Art Deco design on pea shooter. I was looking at a York Cornet the other day that every square inch of it had wounderful engraveing on it. It was built for the USA Marine Corp Band inthe 1890's...... Nothing that Taylor has ontheir sight comes close tot he level of beauty and workmanship that is no longer seen on daily use trumpet's of yester year. That does not take anything away from taylor trumpets some of which I would absolutely love to own. In particular their Phenoix model with the square bell is something else as is their all copper model and their Chicago C trumpet to name a few. Their artistry is not in the surface finish rather the lines of the trumpet itself and their braces that is a different form of artistry.

    I would love to see how we arive at such good values when you look at the the price of a professional model trumpet from the 1950's and compare that to the price of a pro model 2008? Seriously where is the value? What about student models look ath what you could get in the 1960's and 1970 for under $200 and campare that to what you can get for say $600 today and come talk to me about good value??? That is whys so many people buy intruments from Ebay. You even see Taylor and other high end brands on their and usualy for far less then MSRP. I know that where I will more then likely by my first Taylor or other high end horn! It is the only way to get a good deal!
     
  7. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    You still don't grasp the idea of inflation do you. $200 in the 50's is not equal to $200 today.
     
  8. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

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    Ditto. Add to that CNC machines and some other expensive gadgets, expensive materials, customisations. endorsement fees and god knows what else (I am far from the idea to know all novelties in brass instrument building)...I would be still more willing for excellent playing horn (intonation, sound, ease of articulations) than for a well decorated trumpet that would be more valuable as an indoor embelishment...
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2008
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Lovevixen seems to be disconnected with the concept of cost of business. It isn't just inflation. The entire concept of apprentices, journeyman and the like where knowledge could be passed on is dissappearing fast. We can learn how to solder, but if we use Bach as an example, they obviously lost something after Mount Vernon. Some people seem to think that patents can be disregarded and that true research is done with Google and YouTube.

    When you do get a REAL artisan, they have to come up with all sorts of securities for the bank, otherwise they don't even get off of the ground. Many start as repairmen and get a chance. If they have some business sense, they are able to charge REAL money and have a bit of padding to perform further R+D.

    The keys to true success?

    technical background
    common sense
    business sense
    integrity
    the ability to market product at prices that insure that the company is alive next year.

    Most of all, the ability to ignore the internet cheapskate. They only succeed in getting widespread approval for ever decreasing product value.

    As a note of heresey: I'll bet that some repair person could buy a container of crap asian instruments and modify them to produce decent instruments. They would still be cheaper than much of the competition. If we follow Brekelefuws thread on modifying a cheap horn, a lot CAN be done. Why does this not happen during the original manufacture? Easy, the marketing person ordering the horn was an internet cheapskate!!!!!
     
  10. godchaser

    godchaser Banned

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    "I would love to see how we arive at such good values when you look at the the price of a professional model trumpet from the 1950's and compare that to the price of a pro model 2008? Seriously where is the value?"

    -lovevixen


    Getzen has spoken about this here, l.v. Aside from suggestions that unreasonable-consumerism is victimizing greater breadth of quality-Horn production- there's a lot at play. Builders are having to negotiate (Player bias; whether provoked by Industry sound expectations for Pros, or amateur Players mirroring the same) -while maintaining an innovative-interest. It's not so much an activity of negotiation, as it is a rebirth of existing Trumpet-design. Innovation isn't the reality of a Builder/Market relationship. It's apparent Industry dependence, in recycled sound. Which isn't to suggest that today's student model/pro model, (by reputable standard), isn't a better functioning instrument than they were back in the day.

    -Value, in terms of so-called Builder-artistry, to motion of innovative contribution, or would deem a new & distinctive sound. In line of a more widely-appreciable advancement in construction/manufacturing capability, by consequence. -I don't feel, could be called a failure of value, or lost-elegance in manufacturing intent, generally. But rather a natural reluctance of Industry wide predisposition. Which oddly enough, comes to suggest that re-inventing Trumpet-design and sound, isn't necessarily pointed of a lethargic Industry at all. It's just the laziness of qualifying supposed innovation, and Builder artistry by contrast. The necessity of a myth behind the legend, so to speak. Wherever the reality finds us: the reflective dance of manufacturing advance & subjective sound interpretation is intrinsically bound in considering the patina of visual-richness you speak of. It's inevitable that we'll repackage it, and call it new again.

    Which can't be'a bad thing. I love the style of old, myself.



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    Last edited: Dec 20, 2008

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