Anyone Know anyone that can add Garland to a bell?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

    Oct 16, 2008
    "I think it is silly and vain to get a gold plated anything if it does not serve a purpose."

    I missed the part where you said that was just for kids or young men. So I guess it's not silly or vain if an adult wants gold plating?

    It seems like your current rant is about the "value" of today's student horns compared to those from many years ago. Without getting into an economics discussion I'll ask you to compare automobile prices from the 50's and 60's to today. You'll see inflation there as well.

    But if we go back to some of your other threads/rants, haven't you established that there's essentially no difference between a student horn and a custom pro horn? Heck, aren't you in the process of creating your own custom horn that will rival that of the current custom horns on the market? I think not, but you never know.

    I think that you're having a problem reconciling theory with reality. In theory you should be able to solder some tubes together and get a lovely trumpet. Reality tells us otherwise. In theory a custom made pro trumpet should be more reasonably priced, but reality tells us different.

    You post with an indignance that assumes everyone here should think exactly the same way that you do, but your opinion is just that...yours.
  2. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

    Nov 5, 2008
    No if an adult wants a gold plated mouth piece and he is going to pay for it it is his money to spend how he see's fit! I just think that young men should have to work for things that are not needed and only serve to fuel vanity and status. I have no issue at all with a anyone getting one if they pay for it themselfs! I even made sure to clairify that if it was due to allergic reaction then it was fine as well for a parent to get one for their kid. I just think that when we spoil young men and fail to teach them a solid work=reward type ethic that we do not do them any favor's! As big of a double standard as it is it is ok for a woman to be a kept woman but it is heavily frowned upon for a man to be a kept man!! The expectation in our society is that men should work for what they have either with their brawn or their brains and should not expect things to be given to them. Women can go either way really and not be looked down upon depending on what social circle's you travel in. Even if ones wife makes more money then you do it is still considered really bad if the Dad is just a stay at home Dad. I am not makeing this up either. I spent a few year's working from home being Mr. Mom while my wife had a go at really getting deep into her carreer and I had all kinds of social pressure to not do that. I was still working too but at the time I was in sales and had my own company and could afford to set my own schedule.

    In fact even though I believe in realitive gender equality I expect far more from young men in terms of self disipline, work ethic, knoldge of the unwritten rules of our society and makeing logical and moral decisions etc..... I know that it is not exactly fair to do that but I am at the very least honest. I think to do other wise set's up a young man for a rude awkening when they get intot he world on their own for the first time.

    So to re-cap I am not a anti-gold plated mouthpiece nazi!!!!LOL My point was only that if it was for vanity alone the young man should have to earn it in some way instead of it just being given to him! Are you kiddingme I almost bought a gold plated 1920's Vega trumpet. I am considering gold plateing a trumpet for myself when I can afford it! Obviously my obligations to family come first so the gold plated trumpet is preety far down my list of things to get or do!!!LOL
  3. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    I realise I'm replying to an elderly thread, but I didn't see it before:

    The companies that do this type of work usually refer to the garland as a "kranz" (pronounced krants), and are mostly in Europe (the term means wreath). Some companies to try are: Dotzauer, Voigt (Jurgen's daughter runs the company now), Thein, and others I can't bring to mind off-hand.

    Pretty much any company that has the tools for installing and removing them can do the work. There's not much to it- just a few tools and some sheet metal.

    The kranz is not just for decoration- there is a functional reason for having one, that should be considered before you think about putting one on your instrument.

    Like a "bra" on a car hood, the kranz was added to protect the bell, and was either removed or replaced when it got too ugly-looking. Also referred to as a "tone ring", the purpose of the kranz was to " . . . help(s) focus and project the sound without breaking up at louder volumes." In other words, it was an anti-blatt device.

    All but a few of my pre-1850 brass instruments have them, and I can tell you from personal experience that most need them. Those instruments of somewhat indeterminate pitch play almost in tune with them :^)
    rowuk likes this.
  4. Bflatman

    Bflatman Forte User

    Nov 27, 2008
    Manchester, England
    I think the truth is hidden in this and is difficult to uncover.

    Back in the day when instruments were richly engraved engravers were plentiful and manufacturers could have engravers on staff to work on the horns. But this was cost effective in those days.

    The reality is that in the 1920s a house would cost you 1000 dollars and a musical instrument would cost you 100 dollars. In other words a musical instrument would cost one tenth of the cost of a house.

    Today a house would cost you 200,000 dollars, and by the same measure an instrument should cost 20,000 dollars but in fact it only costs 2000 dollars.

    Why the difference.

    The difference is better design, better manufacturing, less add on costs like engraving. Be thankful that we dont have richly engraved instruments made in the traditional way, or our instruments would cost 15,000 dollars apiece or more.
    OldKing likes this.
  5. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    I think you should have researched the matter before posting.

    Companies like Dotzauer and Voigt charge a little over $100 US to add a garland to a trumpet, which is cheap and affordable. Egger would probably do it for you, too. So cost can hardly be said to be a factor. If you can afford a high-end horn, you can easily afford a garland. The cost is negligible.
  6. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    SuperLJ likes this.
  7. BrassBandMajor

    BrassBandMajor Fortissimo User

    Jan 13, 2015
    Garland adding on an brand new Alexander 103 ain't cheap.....
  8. Bflatman

    Bflatman Forte User

    Nov 27, 2008
    Manchester, England
    gsmonks I always research, and I did then.

    My point was that back in the day instruments were priced very highly compared to today, this allows for the necessary human work and wages cost money. As the horns in those days required a lot of human effort and activity to build, engravers activities were easier to factor in.

    These days costs are plummeting and are controlled better and that means no engraving. There just isnt the spare money in a business that carefully watches every penny, for embellishment on a horn. It is easy to argue that engravers do not cost a huge amount, 100 dollars does not seem a massive amount to add to the retail price, but the truth is it is just too much to add in todays market.

    With customers demanding cheaper products, and competitors who dont engrave undercutting those that do, and far eastern manufacturers taking market share, a manufacturer just cannot afford to engrave his products and overprice his instruments by 100 dollars each. Manufacturers are being driven to the wall even when they dont engrave so no manufacturer in his right mind will consider it.

    It makes no financial sense in the 21st century to price yourself out of business.

    There are many examples of manufacturers who reduce costs by 5 cents to simply be more competitive in todays cut throat markets. No sensible manufacturer would significantly increase the cost of a product simply to make them look prettier.
  9. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    I know all kinds of makers who do custom engraving if you ask nicely, and while it's not cheap, if you really want it, it's affordable. And if you shop around, you'll find that prices vary greatly, from cheap to nosebleed expensive. It's the same with repairs: prices are all over the place right now.

    The only people I know looking for cheap are kids, mostly students with few shekels to work with, and pros looking for toys they aren't able or willing to sell their first-born for.

    There is always the option of sending one of your prized horns in to have options added as you can afford them- engraving, garlands, diesel-powered water keys, gold-wash plating inside the bell, sandblasting for that matte-finish look (as on one of my old King Liberty trumpets), radioactive glow-in-the-dark finger buttons, custom leather wrapping or valve-casing covers, even having your case decorated with stolen Renaissance art.

    My memory of high-end horns that came highly decorated (back in the 1950's) is that they were the top models, were very expensive, very often special-order, and that the cheaper lines were plain. I'm thinking of Olds (the Recording was decorated, the Ambassador was not), King (the Liberty line was highly decorated, the cheaper horns were not), Bach, Conn, Lyon & Healy, J. W. Pepper, York & Sons, etc.

    By contrast, few of my pre-1900 horns have any type of decoration, except for garlands, which were cheap, easy to install.

    Guys used to wait a long time to acquire their dream horn in those days. My old trumpet teacher Ken Hopkins played an Olds C for years before getting his Bach Strad in the 50's. Lots of high-end horn acquisition came with a similar story back then. Especially Horn players, who often waited years, sometimes decades. It wasn't like today, where lots of players have lots of horns. Most pros I knew back in the 50's and 60's only had a very few horns. Many had only one. There was a whole assembly process, with great attention to detail, that doesn't exist today, except in a few high-end makers' shops.
  10. gsmonks

    gsmonks Piano User

    Here's my 1845 Bohemian-made F coil valve trombone (predecessor of the modern instrument mis-called the "cimbasso"). It's very typical of instruments of the period and area: it's plain, with a garland.

    cim 2.jpg

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