Arban's "t"

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Jude, Dec 17, 2007.

  1. Jude

    Jude Piano User

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    Dec 2, 2007
    It's been pointed out that the vowel Arban had in mind for "tu" was the French rounded "ee," but I haven't heard anything about the "t." In English, the "t" is normally the alveolar type, with the tongue contacting the alveolar ridge at the top of the upper teeth; in French (and most other European languages) the dental version is used. (English has to make the distinction between the (interdental) "th" and "t" clear; languages without the "th" don't have to worry about this.) This may mean that Arban was actually calling for a tongue-strike position lower than is taught in English-speaking countries (but called for Jeanne Pocius).

    Are there any native speakers of say French or Russian here who can weigh in on this? There was a thread at anoTHer forum describing a problem with the onset noise Jeanne describes as being associated with the alveolar/top of the upper teeth position and all the recommendations involved using the alveolar position. Can anybody here detect a difference in the articulation of Andre or Nazarieff and English-speaking trumpeters? My ear simply isn't sensitive enough for this. Too bad Arban spent time in Russia rather than England, or he might have mentioned the "accent" English-speakers had in playing the cornet.

    Jude
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2007
  2. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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    Just blow man :-)
     
  3. Jude

    Jude Piano User

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    But this is my chance to get it right! I'm a comebacker, not in the sense of returning to where I once was (Lord forbid) but in the Bill Clinton sense - getting up off the floor and getting a second chance. If simply mentally saying "та" instead of "tah" (etc.) will eventually give me a better articulation I figure it's worth a try. (I offered to trade my teacher Russian lessons for trumpet lessons, but he prefers the cash. I am, however, free to imagine whatever I like while tonguing, as long as I do it two hours a day.)
     
  4. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

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    Jude, if you feel that learning a language (French) may help you playing, then learn it! Whether it will directly help your articulation or not is rather questionable, but certainly it won't hurt it. Myself, I am Bulgarian, speaking French, English, a bit of Italian and German. I am not sure what helped me exactly (the language or studying with French, British, Swiss and German trumpeters), but my colleagues in Bulgaria often say that I don't articulate exactly as most Bulgarian trumpeters. So, learn French, if you like the idea, but still go to trumpet lessons. If your French does not help your playing, you can still take advantage of being able to speak another language. How exactly Arban was saying tu is uncertain, as French may have not been exactly the same as today. Then another variable is what dialect he was speaking? don't hurt your brain with that. Just practice, listen to as many recordings as you can, try to pick up from what you hear and have fun!
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey Jude,
    if you have a knack for lanquages, your tongue will go where it needs to. If you don't, you will just have to practice like the rest of us. ;-)

    All kidding aside, The Arban method was NEVER intended for self help. It is a Conservatory Method and that means somebody in the know watching you very carefully.

    To be honest, there are great examples of lightning quick articulation from many different native speakers:
    Maurice André, Rafael Mèndez, Sergei Nakariakov, Al Vizzutti, Matthias Höfs, Hakan Hardenberger, Thomas Gansch...............
    This leads me to believe that success is purely based on our dedication and not our native language!
    Herbert Clarke also tukued away and he was definitely NOT French or Russian
     
  6. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Everyody is right! Wonderful! Yeah, the French (or Ferman!) "T" is closer to our "D" than our "T" is (otherwise we wouldn't have a difference between D and T, and "Drumped Masder" would just be wrong!).

    Little babies, when they start to vocalize, can make every sound in every language. As we age we "forget" how to make those sounds foriegn to our mother tongue.

    So, we can tongue "D" and "T" and in-between. Try them all out, "memorize" the sounds they make, and then just play. ("Halfing fun ad te same dime," as the Germans would say.)
     
  7. Jude

    Jude Piano User

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    No, no more languages! (Especially not as an aid in learning something else.) Sorry, I was unclear. But I fully intend to take your advice to have fun.

    Jude the Obscure
     
  8. Jude

    Jude Piano User

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    All I want is to practice as efficiently as possible! I'm not trying to cut the time, promise! (If I do, I just have to go back to work translating Russian sooner.)

    If I hadn't read in Trumpeting by Nature that it's better to tongue low on the teeth I wouldn't have mentioned this: I thought it might be a matter of common concern. And that a comparison of the phonemic systems might clarify... oh, well.

    But didn't Clarke use the TCE? Which involves keeping the tongue down low?

    Jude the Obsessive
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Jude,
    tongue position is a controversial issue. It is safe to say that no one has the market cornered on fast tonguing, sound or range and that finding what is right for you can be expedited by getting a good teacher with YOUR interests at heart!
    Even if something worked for Herbert Clarke, that does not mean that anyone else on the planet has his skill- or chop-set. Success means attention to detail. Music demands variety and if we are truely impassioned, we want it all - everything from the German jackhammer "T" to the french cotton-mouthed "D"!
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2007
  10. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

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    After studying the TCE for a little bit, I can actually put some input on this haha...

    The TCE set involves a spit buzz type of tounging. Its supposed to feel as if you are spitting a hair off of your tounge, but the hair wont budge. I'd say its almost like trying to say tuu with only moving the front of your tounge. The concept is that you can get a powerful attack with the power of your tounge and the little bit of air inside of your mouth.

    In Conventional Sets, the articulation is caused by the air after the attack. The tounge stops the air with a hermetic seal, and then releases it all at once, producing a powerful attack if needed.
     

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