Audacity Trumpet Spectra

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Sethoflagos, Apr 18, 2015.

  1. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I have equipment both from M Audio and Focusrite. The Focusrite wins easily on sound quality alone. I currently have the Focusrite Forte, Focusrite Saffire Pro 10 and the M Audio fast track pro. I have 3 Behringer condenser microphones. They are fine. The sound is OK and they are 10 years old and still going strong. They don't perform like my Schoeps or Neumanns, but then again they cost quite a bit less. I have some Oktava MK012-01 microphones that are reasonably cheap and VERY good quality - almost as good as the Neumanns.

    For measurement purposes as we are doing it, I don't consider the microphone to be the weak link.
     
  2. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    Either one of those audio interfaces will get the job done - some might argue that the preamps in the Focusrite are going to be better, but ultimately both are solid pieces of kit. I have the big brother to the Scarlett, the Saffire Pro 40.

    I'm surprised that you can't get your hands on an SM57 though. If Behringer products can be had and they are available, the Behringer XM8500 is a less expensive (and slightly hotter) clone to the Shure SM58, which contains the same capsule as the 57. I bought 3 of them for $60 so that I'd have some extra mics, and I haven't be disappointed with them. From a sound perspective, they are right there with the 57/58. They clearly aren't made as well, but when you can buy 5 of them for the price of a single SM58 and the sound quality is comparable, (seriously, review after review rate them quite highly, with many of those ratings coming from pro sound engineers who are blown away at the quality vs price, especially when compared to the SM58) they aren't a bad value even if one of them does decide to quit or break.

    These days I do my trumpet recording with a Shure SM7B, and although I also have an SM57, in a pinch, I'd have no qualms at all about using one of those Behringers.
     
  3. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Local knowledge has informed me that the Focusrite can have problems here due to the climate, and the stockists have a high rate of returns.

    So I've just taken delivery of a new M-Audio M-Track 2-Channel USB which is widely used here and was recommended by friends in the performing biz; Behringer B-2 Pro condenser mic with Jarguar stand; 5m Proel cable and Yoga CD-2200 headphones.

    Looks neat - seems to work - and I'm left thinking how much things have changed since I used to plug my bass guitar into an MDF box the size of a suitcase!

    My weekend sorted anyway :-)
     
  4. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    The B-2 Pro reviews really well - I have no personal experience with it though. I have a poor man's U87, the MXL V67G, which is a clone of the U87, made overseas from cheaper parts, but still a decent mic for the money. Let's see....I'm a home hobbyist, so $3500+ or $100? Hmmmmm? Yeah - that one wasn't too hard for me to figure out. :-) The B-2 Pro reviews as being a big bright on the high end, but that can be rolled off in EQ. Should get you where you need to go.
     
  5. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    I was going to let this thread die a natural death. But I changed my mind.

    Up until a few days ago I thought the Wild Thing was probably the most resonant instrument I'd ever played. That was until I got my hands on an Inderbinen Alpha C 200.

    The spectrum above is for the Yamaha 6335HS given a bit of a push on a good day.

    This is what I get from the Inderbinen for concert C in stave without pushing (no more than mf)

    [​IMG]

    Okay, the graphs show some differences, but what does it mean in reality? Well for one thing, the second and third harmonics are so strong that I can hear them as separate notes. At first I thought I was picking up some sum and differences off the AC or something, but no. It's definitely out of the instrument. So the default note is this broad, warm terracotta carpet complete with underlay. No, actually, it's more organic than that. Maybe a bumblebee contemplating a slab of 80% cocoa solids chocolate, the underlying bitterness offset with the sweet heat of ginger. (Forgive the scientific terminology here ;-))

    It's a colour I can sometimes approach on the Yamaha, but only when the moon is in the seventh house and jupiter aligns with mars. With this instrument, it's the starting point.

    Questions, questions, questions...I guess mainly addressed to Rowuk and VB but anybody else feel free to chip in (providing it isn't too trollish).

    Barliman reckons that this sound concept is totally wrong for Mozart but the perfect tool for say, Mahler 5. This sort of fits in with the design brief I gave Thomas (Forge for me a fearsome blade that I may bring ruin unto the mighty Hindemith).

    But if it's warm to start off with - and the 'ginger' can readily rise to 'habanero' - what becomes of my beloved peppermints and citrus? They don't feel readily to hand. The notes don't cool at lower dynamics - they just get more distant. Different mouthpiece? or different instrument?

    The slots on this instrument are razor sharp. To the extent that even vibrato is compromised (though trills are crystal clear). Is that a result of the resonance design or an entirely separate issue?
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The Inderbinen horns that I have played all have been "heavier" and built resonance conscious - meaning high Q.

    As far as being suitable for a specific music, I guess it depends on who you play with. These days when I play Mozart, it is with the natural trumpet. Mahler/Bruckner gets played on a 1938 Heckel rotary Bb that does the german trumpet thing of NOT sounding the same in all registers. I have a nice low F trumpet that was standard fare in german orchestras between 1850 and the first world war, but it needs an overhaul before I start to use it regularly. It sounds closer to a natural trumpet than a modern Bb or C.

    So, the Inderbinen is way far away from what I am doing for those styles-BUT Hindemith is another story. My favorite horn for his Sonata is my heavy Monette. The Inderbinen also shares that sound that in my opinion depicts the first movement "Mit Kraft" as well as the precision and pianississimmo needed for the the last movement.

    I think that you also need to measure the spectrum of the sound at your ears. That to me determines what happens with the heavier horns. The strong 3rd, 6th and 12th harmonic (fifths) definitely adds a certain color to the sound.
     
  7. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Now that is interesting. For me, the very strong slotting gives a lot of security for a piece with many awkward intervals; and the one technical imposition I did ask for - moderate resistance - gives more fine-grained control over the dynamics. Both of these have significant costs, but costs I'm prepared to live with. You clearly don't need to pay those costs as you don't share my technical limitations - and yet you come to a similar equipment choice. Coincidence perhaps?

    Stands out, doesn't it? Vox principalis and vox organalis. Too right there'll be a few measurements taken when we're back home.
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Inderbinen and Hindemith is no coincidence. As a matter of fact my frequent mention of palettes of color fits here also. We don't need a collection of similar sounding horns if playing is our goal. We need a stable of complementary palettes allowing us to fine tune to mood and playing situation.

    Often, heavy horns are put off as design statements. When we really listen, we can determine if the artisan has a specific tone/sound that they are after. In the case of Monette and Inderbinen for instance, we CAN hear the relationship between all models. The other heavy horns that I am familiar with do NOT belong to families, they are specific models, but unique for that manufacturer. Harrelson is a good for instance. He is not "married" to the SWE sound and also builds other, more standard models. Taylor is yet another example. That is not good or bad, it is simply not the concept, the connection to all of their instruments.

    A couple of years ago we played Mahler 8. We had a new trumpet player in the section and he brought his Inderbinen Eb trumpet (parts were in low F and not playable on that horn). He left the case open for us to see what he owned, but no one commented. During the break, he asked me if I would be interested in trying it. I said sure, but not with Mahler. I played it for about 15 minutes during the break and can't understand why this horn even exists. There was nothing about its palette that inspires me to match it to any type of playing job that I have ever had. The thick sound was obnoxious. It wouldn't blend with anything or be useful for me for a Haydn or Hummel. This was not consistent with my impression of the Bb and C trumpets that I have played which had a "right" to existence because of a special palette of colors.
     
  9. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    Can I be impertinent?

    What instruments would you look to first for:

    a) Poulenc or Milhaud?
    b) Bartok?
    c) Petroushka?
     
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I like modern french music with my Bach C trumpet (Bozza, Poulenc, Langlais, Ravel). None of this music screams for thickness of tone rather a clear soprano voice. I play the high part in Bolero with my medium bore Selmer Radial 2° D trumpet. Stravinsky depends. I think a lot of his trumpet section work (in Petroushka too!) is very big band inspired. The ballerina dance works equally well for me on the Bb and C. There is a fantastic recording with a Yamaha Xeno played by Frits (One Breath) Damrow with the Concertgebouw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7D6RixMdz4

    There is even a naughty version with a Ganschorn in a lesson with Mark Gould (this is a family site, you have to google it yourself....).

    Bartok is big, bad music. I don't think that ones sound can be big or dark enough (dark of course in my interpretation is not frequency response, rather style). It is orchestrated so that thick really works.
     

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