Bach C trumpet bell and leadpipe combinations

Discussion in 'Horns' started by Mikey, Dec 16, 2003.

  1. Mikey

    Mikey Forte User

    Oct 24, 2003
    Here is one for you symphony guys and gals:

    If you play a Bach C trumpet, what leadpipe and bell do you prefer, and why?

    This can include Laskey and Malone conversions, as long as it is a Bach valve section and a Bach bell.

  2. Lawler Bb

    Lawler Bb Piano User

    Oct 25, 2003
    Milwaukee, WI
    Well, you can look in my signature to see my current combination. I really like it, though I have played a number of regular 25H 229 setups that were great too. I used to own a 25S 229 that I didn't like as much, hence, I sold it.

    The 229H bell is probably a bit much for me right now, since it takes a little more to get the horn to respond. However, the sound it makes when playing in the middle to low register at a low to medium dynamic is wonderful.
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Forte User

    Oct 21, 2003
    Here are my choices

    Bach 229, 25H.

    Bach 229H 25H.

    Bach 229GH, 25H.

    Any of these horns has the potential to sound great. You just need to find a good one. In general I think for the majority of players the 229 bell will be your best bet. I have played some H and GH bells that have been fantastic. I have also played some of thsoe combinations that are dogs. You just have to search for a good horn.

    The Best Bach C Trumpet I have ever played is a Bach Full Malone conversion. I think it has a MC2 leadpipe on it and the whole thing is tricked out. One of our moderators owns this horn. Lucky Bastard :)

    (I head the new Yamaha C trumpet that malone has tricked out will be great. )

  4. bugler16

    bugler16 Pianissimo User

    Dec 14, 2003
    I personally likemy setup 229 bell with a standard pipe. But a friend of mine has a 229 tuning bell with a Schlueter (sp) pipe that I like very much also.
  5. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles

    I've got a 30,000 series Elkhart with a 25 reversed ( Malone type ) hidden leadpipe , tuneble bell , 238 G bell.

    I love the sound, but what would you suggest to get more focus and control.

    For small groups or recording I have a Mt. Vernon C ( ml ) bore with a 6 pipe and 236 bell. This combo is great , but a little samll sometimes.

    Should I go with a smaller bell on the LB or a larger bell on the ML.
    Because there tuneble bells, it's easy for me to change.


    Also, should I use a 6a4a or Jet-tone " Bill Chase " model with these?
  6. Mikey

    Mikey Forte User

    Oct 24, 2003

    I would stick with the large bore valve section, as you will get a broader sound. I have found that some tunable bell C trumpets can be squirrly, as the missing front bell brace can help lock in and make it feel more stable. The Malone reverse leadpipe should be fine. I would try a 229 bell. I believe the 229 bell has a smaller bell tail than the 238. but make it a fixed bell horn. Sometimes, intonation problems on a C trumpet can be improved with the tuning bell setup, but then you lose some focus and control.

    Another thing you can do, if you like the option of switching bells, is to have the horn converted to a removable fixed-bell setup. A friend of mine in the Colorado Symphony has this on his C trumpet. Basically, the 2 bell braces are like the old Conn braces, (straight across), but they are threaded. So, you get the feel of a fixed bell horn.

    I believe Wynton used a Bach 238 bell on his Schilke Eb when he did those Haydn/Hummell recordings many years ago (when he was only 19).

    I would not do a thing to that ML Mount Vernon...

    As far as mouthpieces, I think the new MF Prana mouthpiece is the way to go for C trumpet. (Tuned at the factory; no need to use alternate fingerings.)

  7. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Mr. Mikey,

    I have a removeable , pivoting front brace made by Ron Pinc of Laskey Brassworks fame, the same kind used by Jon Faddis on his tuneble bell S42 so it does give me some pressure on the front of the bell.

    The 238 bell is the vinabonna bell, plus it is gold brass, is that to big for a Malone installed , reversed - type 25 pipe. ?
    I have another Mt. V # 6 pipe, should i have that fitted for the CL ? ala
    Bub Herseth?

    The MF prana is an excellant choice. Should i get the MF II with the 19 throat of the MF III ( they do make this one ) with the 13 throat. Maybe I should get both , whats a mere $ 750.00 ( plus shipping ) . My kids don't have to eat, right what's more important.

    I will do my Cat Anderson 20 minute " G " in the staff as await your answer.
  8. Mikey

    Mikey Forte User

    Oct 24, 2003
    That 238 bell might be too big for the Malone leadpipe. The more I play my Bach/Laskey C with Scott's version of the #6 pipe, the more I realize how easy it is to play. A lot more efficient.

    Contrary to popular beliefe, Herseth did not use a 25H pipe on his C trumpet. I believe his pipe was very close to a #6, like I have on my Laskey C.

    I would be curious to hear how that Mount Vernon #6 pipe would work with the 238 bell. The nice thing about that Faddis style front brace is that you can move it around until you find the "sweet spot".
    I would also get a 229 bell made up for your C.

    I would go for broke and get both MF Prana mouthpieces. The #13 throat will really help when you want to paste the conductor's ears back.

    Yeah, I am going to do Cat in a few minutes here.......

  9. MPM

    MPM Pianissimo User

    Nov 10, 2003
    Very interesting about the Prana mpc's on Bach C trumpets! I've also read on the monette website that there are certain monette mpc's designed for the various pitch trumpets? And I have read that the smaller shallower cup mpc's work well on the higher pitcher trpts. Are these considered "specailty mpc's"?

    I'm pretty ignorant about the higher pitched trumpets, so any input would be appreciated. I don't own anything but B flat trpts & Flug., although I anticipate getting a piccolo & a C trumpet.

  10. richtom

    richtom Forte User

    Dec 7, 2003
    I had always assumed that a 229/25H would be the combination that I would gravitate to. After all, in the Chicago area, that is pretty much what you are "supposed" to play.
    A month ago, my ancient Getzen Capri C from the late 60s gave up and the splits in the leadpipe just leaked too much to fight with and the horn was just not worth repairing, so out I went in search of a new one.
    Fortunately, a music store in Des Plaines, Il always has a good stock of C trumpets from Bach and Yamaha. (No Vintage One Cs though). They even had one French Besson Classic left.
    I tried 7 horns. Five different large bore Bach combinations, a Xeno, and the French Besson Classic. I use a GR e65MX and e65M and used both of them on each horn.
    They had 2 229/25H combos, a 239/25, a 229/25S, and a 239/25A, all in silver. I immediately went for the 229/25H combos and found I could not control either of them and could not play them in tune. The 239/25 was better, but not quite open enough, the 229/25S played nice and in tune but I must not be able to control the 229 bell and had trouble controlling the overall sound. The 239/25A played open and in tune. Very smooth, very clean. Not at all stuffy or too open.
    I then went to the Xeno. No comparison. The horn was not for me at all. It was impossible for me to control it. I've had Yamaha Bbs and they were both good horns. This one wasn't. I have a Yamaha 6810 pic which is just great. It was likely me, but that was a funny sounding horn.
    The Besson was last. It wasn't bad at all, but lacked the ease the 239/25A possessed.
    I kept trying each Bach and kept going back to the 239/25A. I ended up buying it. Quite honestly, it is a terrific horn. In tune and no quality problems with it. My 229 bell friends all played it and liked it. It blends perfectly with theirs, too. (I have a naturally dark sound so a little brightness doesn't hurt).
    The only horn I ever had that was as easy to play was my old Burbank Benge 5X I used for 25 years before it wore out.
    I guess the point of the story is you must play the horn that works for you. Not all symphony players play the 229 bell, in fact, the great Frank Kaderabek used a Selmer Radial for much of his time as principal in Philly. He is greatly underrated and not mentioned enough as a principal player. He was very, very good, but that is another topic line altogether.
    Way too long a post for a first timer and I've likely screwed it up anyway, so I'm outta here.

    In case anyone is wondering, My Bb is A Bach Vindabona, about 30 years old in raw brass with an somewhat rare 43L bell.

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