Bach Mouthpiece Backbores - Question?

Discussion in 'Mouthpieces / Mutes / Other' started by Larry Gianni, Jan 20, 2004.

  1. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
    4
    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Hello,

    I was asked a question by a prominent player today concerning Bach backbores and his lack of knowledge of the Bach backbore numbering system.

    He is new to the “threaded†backbore concept and has always played the backbore that the Bach factory suggested and had sent with the rim/cup of his choice.

    I have my opinions on the subject, but I told him I would ask my esteemed colleges on the TM site to either validate or “tear apart “my long held concepts.

    He told me he went to the Selmer site and said " Well, a # 24 comes with an A cup, which is described as bigger (than what?), darker (than what?) symphonic and a V cup comes with a # 25 which also list " big " as a description along with a 87 ( big, free blowing ) so what gives"

    Simply list biggest to smallest:

    24
    7
    3
    117
    87
    76
    41
    57
    25

    Plus any others not listed.

    If you can give a personal description after the backbore number, so much the better and I will forward every and all determinations to him. He asked I didn’t reveal his name, but it’s an older “household one “and you would be surprise how little some top named players know about the gear they use.

    Larry

    Note to Bach Trumpet Moderators;

    I asked this question in the “ Bach Trumpet “ forum because I hope it would get more viewings and more diverse opinions then in the “ All - Encompassing “ mouthpiece forum, but if you feel it belongs in the mouthpiece section , I’ll understand if it gets moved.
     
  2. DrunkIQ

    DrunkIQ Pianissimo User

    195
    0
    Nov 21, 2003
    Austin, Texas
    the best way to show him is with the kanstul backbore comparer...

    this way you can show two models on top of themselves and see the differece.... another way would be to compare each of their backbores using this web page with the schilke numbering system - that may make more sense for most people....

    here is the link:

    http://www.kanstul.net/mpcJN/Compare BB/CompareIEbb.HTM

    -marc
     
  3. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
    4
    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Trumpetmikey,

    Got an opinion on these backbores. ?

    Larry
     
  4. Mikey

    Mikey Forte User

    1,840
    2
    Oct 24, 2003
    Yes, I will add my own opinion on this, but I need soem time. Hopefully this weekend.

    Mike
     
  5. romey1

    romey1 Banned

    163
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    Oct 25, 2003
    out
     
  6. dbacon

    dbacon Mezzo Piano User

    576
    7
    Oct 24, 2003
    Scottsdale, AZ.

    I agree with romey completely. Mark Curry makes the best Bach mouthpiece, period.
     
  7. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

    265
    4
    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Hi,

    Mark Curry does make exceptional mouthpieces, that for sure.

    OK, back to my original question ( including the
    #10 BB , which I did leave out ), what do you think.

    Remember, this question is about screw-type backbores ( screwed in to on a custom rim and cup ) 72 throat. All the Bach backbores all made and available at Kanstul's. My friend is not thinking Elkhart , Ind - but Anaheim, Ca as far a getting them.

    Larry
     
  8. AJcarter

    AJcarter New Friend

    10
    0
    Jan 16, 2008
    I thought Kanstul's mouthpiece comparator only compared rim and cup sizes, not back bore. I am also looking for information on Bach back bores, as I have an extra 3C I'd like to open up some.If I find any useful information I will report back directly.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
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    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    AJ,
    when you open up the mouthpiece, you destroy the playing characteristics. The cup, throat and backbore have to be in sync with one another to get a good response. A mismatch lowers the efficiency, makes the slotting worse and can ruin the intonation of the mouthpiece/horn combination.
     
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,498
    7,794
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    Schwab,
    I assume that the mouthpiece builders (Kanstul seems to only be a mouthpiece copier - I see no basic R+D on their part. I do not know much about Warburton, but GR Gary Radtke has the math down!) know what they are doing and that there is a specific reason to have the backbore/throat/cup/horn balanced. The modification of "opening the throat" does destroy that balance (when we run a drill through the throat, we make the throat longer too, adjusting the backbore AND throat can keep the length more "optimal"). This does NOT mean that a large throat is bad. It means that more has to happen than just running a drill through it.

    As far as the pros go, only opening the throat makes the slots fuzzier, and that makes playing a marginally in tune professional C trumpet MUCH easier. As the orchestral standard has up until recently been these marginally in tune C trumpets, it is clear that an open throat was maybe even necessary. With the current generation of much better in tune horns, a smaller throat would increase the efficiency of the entire system though. I have seen no research on whether the "pros" just run a drill through the mouthpiece, or in fact have the mouthpiece "rebalanced" with a larger throat (and backbore). There is a significant difference!

    Opening up a 3C by yourself will not improve anything. If you need a more free blowing mouthpiece, the backbore AND throat need to be adjusted.

    The best research that I have found on this can be found here:

    Welcome at the pages of the IWK (Institute of Musical Acoustics)

    click on research, then mouthpiece forms. If you go down to the part on throat (called seele in German), you see very clearly how opening the throat alone only screws up the intonation. This is worth a read before pulling out the drill!

    The basic calculations are physics and to get a good mouthpiece, a balance must be struck. There may be valid reasons to deviate (bad intonation of the horn for instance). It is better to think about what you need and then to research how to get there instead of just drilling out a mouthpiece and after a couple of months of ignoring the truth, finding out that it was a mistake. Yamaha is making waves with their "in tune" C trumpets though - and that will lead to changes in mouthpiece design.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2008

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