Band director (and myself) wants a darker sound out of me

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by RB-R37297, Nov 27, 2009.

  1. RB-R37297

    RB-R37297 Pianissimo User

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    Mar 12, 2009
    Winnipeg, Manitoba
    Thanks to everyone for the replies and especially to Brett Getzen for the input. I sort of suspected that my equipment wasn't really helping, but lucky for me, I think Santa has a trip to the music store for a new horn in his bag for me this Christmas...:thumbsup:
     
  2. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    Now this is interesting!
    After reading your entries I had to dig through hyperphysics to try and brush up on what you are saying and I have a question for Kilijah and Phil which might pertain to the topic.
    If I read correctly, viscosity in enhanced at a location called the boundry layer. If a trumpet player decreases the oral cavity, does that make the thickness of the gas greater and does this thickening have a significant impact on the efficiency to play higher pitches verses the oral cavity creating darker and brighter charateristics?
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2009
  3. kalijah

    kalijah New Friend

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    May 5, 2008
    If you read what correctly? What are you referring to?
     
  4. Brett Getzen

    Brett Getzen Pianissimo User

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    Actually, I took the easy answer. You should be thanking everyone else more than me. Any idiot can say get a new trumpet. :D

    Brett Getzen
     
  5. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    Hi kilijah,
    you said:
    "Now considering that air is viscous"
    I then read your link on hyperphysics, and learned a little about viscosity near the boundry layer(pretty cool stuff).
    What I'm referring to changing the size of the oral cavity which should change the boundry layer and its effect on viscosity and does this change in viscosity (if a change does take place) causes the pulsing of the lips to become more efficient. I'm wondering if it's akin to the kinetic energy a .22 bullet verses the kinetic energy of an arrow hitting something(in this case the air forcing the lips to pulse). Maybe changing the oral cavity which changes the boundry layer makes playing (for example) in the upper register easier?
    I'll be happy to read whatever answer you give, however, due to my extended separation from physics(I am an old fart), the more simplistic the answer, the better.
     
  6. kalijah

    kalijah New Friend

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    May 5, 2008
    If there were any effect due to the boundary layer it would be where the speed of air is the greatest. this would be through the aperture. not inside the oral space.

    There is no change in viscousity due to the boundary layer. Rather the boundary layer exists due to viscosity and "drag" effects.

    These frictional or "drag" effects do not increase efficiency. They most certainly do reduce it.

    One thing is for certain. The boundary layer does exist which means that the air flowing towards the lip tissue never really "hits" the lip tissue. It "hits" the boundary layer. And the air pressure of the boundary layer is THE pressure.

    it does not matter if the pressure is due to Kinetic or Static pressure.

    That is why it is futile to believe that the increase of flow velocity before the aperture via a smaller oral path will increase the air pressure (or the flow, or power, or energy, or frequency). It will not.

    But attempting to try by reducing the oral space drastically will certainly increase energy loss due to drag (not to mention turbulence).

    That is why the the concept of "Tongue arch and Hiss" is such bad advice and is a detriment to efficiency.
     
  7. RB-R37297

    RB-R37297 Pianissimo User

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    Mar 12, 2009
    Winnipeg, Manitoba
    I do appreciate the "software" suggestions, but it's always nice to see someone who's involved so heavily with the company take some time to help someone out with their product.
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The aperature is not static. The lips open and close like a valve. The AC "backpressure" from the horn and our "blowpressure" can't be that far apart, otherwise we would blow our lips into the cup.

    I believe the velocity of the aperature is all over the place. The throat of the mouthpiece is more likely where we will find the boundary.

    Simulation of Brass Instruments
    IWK Brass Research
    Examination of the Influence of Different Mouthpiece Forms on the Resonance Behavior of Trumpets
    Optimization

    It is my belief that the smaller aperature simply allows for a higher frequency as the lip tissue does not have to move as far as well as less mass being moved.

    Perhaps the ineffieciency of the tongue arch and hiss actually helps as there is less "brute" force applied to the lip, thus letting it open and close faster.
     
  9. kalijah

    kalijah New Friend

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    May 5, 2008
    I never wrote that the aperture is static. Indeed it does pulse the air in a cyclical fashion. But the air does flow through on each pulse and resistance of flow due to drag is in play.



    Yes, less lip vibrating. Determined by the lip aperture itself. With the same (or a bit less) elasticity. This is EXACTLY what dominates the frequency. Air pressure, flow, or speed have little if anything to do with frequency.

    Of course, doing it well is an art. Not a science.


    Again, how frequent (not how "fast") the lip pulses is not influenced by the air path before it.

    If you need less air pressure then simply dont blow as hard. Adding a "hiss" is like driving a car with the brakes on when you could use less energy by simply easing off the throttle.
     
  10. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    Clarksburg, WV
    Hi Kalijah
    First I'd like to say thanks for answering my question.
    Second, you mentioned Arch Tongue and Hiss as a bad or inefficient method. Can you speculate why so many(including myself) use it with such great results. My experience is that physically its an easier method verses keeping the tongue out of the hiss position.
     

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