Blattay Sound

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by anthony, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    As a former student of the Maggio system (and acquainted with the program for some 42 years approximately) I think that just maybe, perhaps slightly I'm in a position to make comment as to its validity. What ya think just MAYBE???


    ALL syllable systems ie Louis Maggio, Claude Gordon etc, are flawed. Now this doesn't mean that you can't learn anything from them. But at least as they explain themselves they are all FLAWED. Each syllable system, as described would require a violation of physical law which simply can not happen. No more than one can violate the law of gravity, the restriction of air within the mouth cavity can not by itself influence the air pressure available at the embouchure release point inside the mouthpiece.

    Can not possibly happen. Is not like a "maybe some of us work this way" Au contraire NO ONE can violate the laws of physics. I have little patience for those who attempt to defend or promote the false "faster air" argument and simply won't respond to them. Not any more..

    IF (and the key word here is "If") there is a physical advantage to a forward tongue movement (upon range/tonal production on a brass instrument) within the mouth it could only be associated with the tongue's impact/effect upon the embouchure DIRECTLY through touching or not touching this.

    However the antiquated Gordon and Maggio lessons do not describe this reality. Again this doesn't necessarily mean that you can't learn anything from the pedal tones or exercises. But if we are responsible and interested in what really makes the thing work? well we ought to look for the real causes of helpful tonal production.

    And if a forward tongue movement is occasionally helpful? then this matter ought to be researched, investigated and explained.

    Arturo Sandoval and Jon Faddis are extremely gifted trumpet players. Granted they worked very hard at their art. That said however almost ANY SYSTEM would have worked for each. they're natural players. With most natural phenoms about the only thing that the average masses can derive from them is inspiration.

    Some, like Maynard Ferguson and Doc Severinsen knew and acknowledged this. They knew they were natural players and it is to their credit that they admitted it. Most phenoms however however don't. I do not know if Sandoval and Faddis are cognizant of these facts and so won't comment. Although we ought to at least wise to the fact that Sandoval is teaching the so-called "faster air" method which, at least as explained can easily be refuted. This doesn't make Arturo a bad person it just means that what he explains in his heart is not really what happens when the tone comes out his horn.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2012
  2. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

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    Interesting thread. As a non expert, I am convinced that probably any system would have worked for MF, Faddis of Arturo. In fact, I believe that the best teachers are players who had to overcome a lack of natural ability through systematic work, and a lot of trial and error. They should be more apt at helping others to overcome difficulties too. I'm not sure how Sergei Nakariakov would teach technique for instance; I can imagine the guy saying "why don't you get it? It's easy, you just coordinate the tongue, fingers, lips and air column, nothing to it!" True enough but not really helpful for the ones who have difficulties. Then again, maybe he does a great job in master classes.

    But the same applies for the high note artists, unless they are really good at analyzing how they achieve their results and can put it in the right words.

    I'm not sure about all this, as the high/extreme high registers are foreign to me, but I believe that, as in many trumpet related problems, there is a risk of misunderstanding when people try to explain in words the sensations they experience. I think that fast air is an example of such possible misunderstanding.

    I have no experience of the Maggio method, so I don't know what exact words they use. I've heard people talking about faster air when playing higher notes and they do not seem able to explain it clearly. From what I've experienced myself, I suspect that they're trying to explain a sensation that is in fact that of the lips opening and closing more frequently, with a corresponding sensation that the airstream in the aperture is "faster."

    Of course, the amount of air exiting the oral cavity -in terms of ml per minute- is not faster with high notes, it is slower. The higher the note, the less volume exits the oral cavity over a given time. However, if one was to clock an individual air molecule between an arbitrary point on the mouth side of the aperture and another on the horn side, both close enough to where the lips contact and release, it is possible that this molecule would do a faster time when playing high notes. The flow (l/min) would be nonetheless slower because much fewer molecules would go through the aperture.

    Somehow, it makes sense to some to explain this with words of "faster air" like that but the message is not accurate from a physical point of view, and also has the risk of leading the learner astray.

    I think that for many of us, we are better leaving as few words in the equation as possible, since you can never be sure it means the same thing for everybody when the air hits the aperture and the muscles have to do their work. from that point of view, "just tongue and blow" has a lot less potential to confuse. I'll stick to that until sensations are refined enough that I have the means to get fancier language. Paralysis by analysis is another problem related to this.
     
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  3. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    Read a book about the late great Ted Williams. He was and still is he greatest hitter to play baseball. He was not as good a hitting instructor. He would get frustrated with mediocre players at batting practice and when asked what to do, his response was often, "Just hit the [email protected]%& ball!".
     
  4. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    So far I've learned a lot of facts.
    1. If something doesn't work for one player,it doesn't work for all.
    2.If you say something is a fact even if it isn't ,it is.
    3.If you say everyone else is wrong,you're right.
    4.If you mention a well known player as an example,they're really exceptions not examples.
    5.Without one certain individual the rest of the trumpet playing world would be lost.
     
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  5. Ed Kennedy

    Ed Kennedy Forte User

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    Calling Nick Drozdoff, where are you on this? We need us some physics.
     
  6. anthony

    anthony Mezzo Piano User

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    Nick is the man ...he can break glass with his trumpet
     
  7. Phil986

    Phil986 Forte User

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    One should not confuse physics of sound production, which are exactly the same whether one uses a rubber balloon or lips, and biomechanics/physiology of sound production by a human using the lips. The physics are straightforward, more or less. The biomechanics, well ,trumpet players get into internet fights about them, what else can we say?
     
  8. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    I don't know about the physics of this discussion, I'm not a physician. However, makers of handheld and backpack blowers advertise "fast air" all the time. They call their machine the one with hurricane or tornado force wind. I own several that tout 225 mph!! I have even seen corded homeowner models advertising winds in excess of 200 mph. They achieve these speeds by making the hole (aperture) at the end of the tube smaller. I even received a blower tube tip that would boost the blowers mph by 20! What differentiates one machine from the other is how much air volume the blower can move and whether the motor can remain efficient in the process. Aperture too small, motor over revs and eventually blows up. Aperture too big and it won't blow very far. I believe this can be done by the player. The dynamic in play here is the equipment and whether it fits the player. Rim shape/diameter, cup depth/size, throat size, backbore, gap, and last but not least the trumpet! Whew! Can a player develop "fast air"? Why not? Will it work with all equipment? That depends on the efficiency of the player and we all know efficiency only comes through practice.
     
  9. frankmike

    frankmike Piano User

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    are you saying that Arturo doesnt know what he is doing?

    FYI I was there -had few lessons, he had Maggio book and Arban. And told me that those two books are the most important books. Magio because it is a great method and arban because it is a great set of excersises.

    Are you better teacher than him? just asking

    because if you are, I might just book a few lessons
     
  10. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    I consider myself a coach, not a teacher. There's a difference. A teacher is often bound by a certain curriculum as in an institution such as a college or conservatory. This curriculum can be a source of conflict when trying to develop students. Sometimes anyway. Also the teacher is usually dependent upon his students in order to make a living. As such his mind is less likely to be open to trying new concepts.

    Arturo definitely knows his way around the horn as well as anyone in the world. However if he teaches the "faster air" for range concept he is mistaken. This doesn't necessarily make his teachings totally inadequate. Far from it. Plenty of other teachers, too many in fact teach this flawed concept and yet still stay in business. Probably his greatest asset as an instructor is as a source of inspiration to his students. That said he is a natural player and as such can not possibly know first hand about the torment the great majority of us go through. How could he know? He's been whacking TRIPLE C's since he was a kid.

    Arturo declares that Maggio worked well for him because this was the system/approach he was exposed to. It is likely that his chops are well suited to the pooched lip, pedal tone emphasis described and promoted by Maggio. For others this approach may not work so well.

    You believe Arturo to be a "great teacher" because he is a great player. If you are comfortable with this idea? Why not try it? If however you reach a serious stymie in your playing (which is the general rule for the great majority of ALL trumpet players) then you will need to re-examine your approach and look for way to get your chops to take advantage of physical law.

    If that happens? Give me a call and i will surely help you FREE of charge as much as my time permits. I consider proper instruction a right and do not charge for it. Since the great majority of us have been ripped off by our teachers (usually without the teacher having any idea he is misrepresenting his ideas) the idea of freely giving seems the only moral choice. From my perspective that is. I have no problem with others charging for lessons. even those who aren't all that knowledgeable. I will however take them to task for their claims from time to time. Usually however they refuse to debate me. Or at least refuse to discuss the subject at hand.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2012

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