Bore size?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Trumpet Dreamer, Feb 6, 2011.

  1. Trumpet Dreamer

    Trumpet Dreamer Mezzo Forte User

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    Can someone explain the differences in bore size? Such as .459, .465 and .470? How do they play? Does a larger bore require a larger volume of air? Can you "push" a large bore horn more than a ML horn? Is a smaller bore more efficient? Does a large bore produce a bigger sound?
    Inquiring minds want to know!
     
  2. reedy

    reedy Piano User

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    I asked this question a while ago whilst on my hunt for a new trumpet, its a bit strange, some large bores play like a ML and some ML play like a L so it really does depend on the horn itself.

    I played a L bore smith watkins and wow what a sound, I got a huge sound out of it with normal sort of effort but when I pushed wow even more it just grew and grew and grew! but was very hard to control quietly infact it was quite hard to control anyway! which I suppose with practice you would get used to....

    Small bores are very rare these days.... but i would expect them to be very tight and live up to there name of 'pea shooters'

    imagine playing a hose pipe, now try and play a straw, now try and play a toilet roll! its the same sort of concept.

    so basically a smaller bore will probably be tighter and possibly easier to play without as much effort, compared to a large bore which will produce a huge sound but may be hard to control so a ML is favoured but this depends on the trumpet you are playing
     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Bore says and does nothing. In theory, a larger mass of air would damp high frequencies more. The problem is that bore is only measured at the valves. There is no "standard" for measuring leadpipe or bell taper.

    As far as "filling" the instrument, that is a myth. The horn is already full of air before we start playing. When we blow, a resonance (standing wave) is set up in the horn. If we play smart, we only need to input enough energy to keep the standing wave going. Needless to say, many players do not play smart and therefore make excuses with horn parameters like bore, material, bracing and the like. The thread "how a trumpet works" at the top of this section goes into pretty deep detail about the BS surrounding bore.
     
  4. supposeda3

    supposeda3 Piano User

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    Rowuk, I have nothing but respect for you and your posts, but I've gotta say, I disagree with you about this.

    I had trouble with tone on my trumpet for a while, then I bought my Jupiter 1604, .462 bore compared to the .460 bore I previously used. (also a Jupiter) My tone immediately improved, I recieved compliments from a lot of other musicians, they noticed it to. That horn opened up my playing all around, and I've become a much better player.

    Not to say that bigger bore is a sure shot at making someone sound better, but for me, it did. It just felt so much better to me.

    Everyone is different, so I dont think its fair of you to say that bore/bracing/etc is 100% meaningless. It is NOT an absolute truth.
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    supposeda,
    the difference that you notice is not the bore!
    A trumpet is the product of all factors and how they work together. An instrument builder can make different bore sizes with exactly the same blow. Tell me why you are sure that the bore is what makes the difference between horns? Are the braces the same, material the same, leadpipe and bell the same, weight of the instrument the same? Are the braces in exactly the same position on both horns?

    The fantasy applied to bore size and the lies told has almost no limits.

    I'll give you an example: a Benge extra large bore horn can peel the paint off of the wall, the Bach Vindabona trumpet was a medium "stepped" bore horn and generally accepted as one of the "darker" Bach sounds. If we compare even the same bore instruments, but with gold brass versus standard yellow brass bells, we also see how much the other things have to say.

    Bore by itself does not mean anything. It does not change the blow or amount of air required. It does not "improve" the sound.

    Bach for instance uses the same valves for the .459 and .462 instruments.
     
  6. supposeda3

    supposeda3 Piano User

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    You are right, bore is not the ONLY thing, many, many factors have a part of creating the sound of a particular horn.

    I previously played a Jupiter 600, and I was testing out a 1602 (both horns .460) model at the local music store. I got my 1604 cheap, and I meant to flip it on ebay, but when I played it, I knew it was the one to keep. So yes, I am talking about identical horns, with just different bores.
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Calculate the difference in air volume with 0.002 difference at the valves if everything else is the same. You will find that you can't explain anything that way! The leadpipe is different and the bell too. It isn't 2 thousandths at the valve. I'll bet if you play 10 of the same model that you like, that you will discover even BIGGER differences than what you believe to be bore.
     
  8. Trumpet Dreamer

    Trumpet Dreamer Mezzo Forte User

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    So, getting back to my original question, if EVERYTHING else is equal...bell composition, flare rate, mouth of the bell, leadpipe, etc., what would the difference be (if any) in a .460, .465, and a .470 bore?

    I ask because my only experience is with a .459 ML bore.
     
  9. bagmangood

    bagmangood Forte User

    Very little - maybe slightly more open/requiring more air

    But of course if that makes the horn perfectly balanced for you then...
     
  10. Kujo20

    Kujo20 Forte User

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    If all of this is true...then why is bore one of the most important things that players want to know about horns when buying them? And why is it one of the first things listed in horn descriptions? If bore does and says nothing, why isn't every single horn a .460? Just curious...
    Kujo
     

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