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Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by G-man-, Dec 3, 2011.
What kind of smoke ? 468-470 is large to me but dont seems to be hard to play.
Ok, here is a hypothetical question.
I like the Bach Stradivarius 180S 43 bell , 0.459 ML bore, standard lead pipe.
Now lets say we get a custom bach Strad 180S 43 bell, 0.470 XL bore, standard lead pipe.
Also lets just say they were made perfectly so if it was the 0.459 it would sound exactly the same as the other trumpet, why would I choose to go a larger bore in a custom make over the standard 0.459?
What would that do in terms of sound? So its a 180S 0.459 vs a 180S 0.470 XL. All else is equal between the 2.
I read somewhere that the bigger the bore, the warmer it plays and harder to play bright because you need to blow harder (more volume) to get it bright, while a small bore trumpet would play bright at a much 'quieter' level.
Just read the thread "How a trumpet works" at the top of this section of the forum. I spent a lot of time with the technical and not so technical to prevent the BS that occurs by desinformation and incomplete copy/paste.
It has been touched on hundreds of times and eventually all of the same myths pop up.
"Faster Bell Flare accentuates the higher overtones, thus sounds brighter"
Is a faster bell flare one that starts sooner or one that flares out right at the end of the bell quickly?
In this regard it would mean a 72 Bell strad should be brighter than the 43/37 based on that, not "darker" as people say. I understand other things come into consideration as well not just bell shape but given a 180S has same specs on the 37/43/72, that would tell me what the shop said and that is that the 72 should be the brightest one of the 3 with the best projection. Ofcourse this is given I understood the 'fast bell flare' correctly. The 43 has the longest bell flare, thus it should be the warmest one, and from my experience, it was warmer/darker than a 37 again contrary to what I read even on Bachs website that the 43 is the brightest.
I have not seen anything in your explanation Rowuk on the Bore size... perhaps its futher in that particular thread and not in your first post?
Will read through the pages.
Update: found it on page 5, wow my head hurts after all that reading everything.
To what I have understood, a Larger bore trumpet due to having more volume of air in it, dampens out the higher frequencies, thus the instrument would sound 'darker' than a smaller bore trumpet (even though this is just one factor of the equation), however when blowing harder, the way the wave thus works, it amplifies the higher frequencies.
In my mind that says playing soft through a Large bore trumpet, would sound 'darker' than a smaller bore trumpet (all else being equal which it never is), and by blowing harder through a large bore would result in amplifying those higher frequencies to brighten the instrument up, this however means that a large bore trumpet to be 'bright' like a small bore trumpet would be playing a lot louder while the small bore can be bright, quieter.
Did I understand it somewhat right?
Nope. I don't think that you understood.
A trumpet is the sum of the artisans work. There are as many large bore screamers (Benge, Callichio) as ML smoky sounding horns (Bach Vindabona). The bore has nothing to do with it.
You obviously haven't had a 72 next to a 43 or 37. Then you would see what I meant by "flare". Take that same 72 and get it in the lightweight version, and it is a screamer. The reasons are many.
At the end of the day, we get tons of posts about the technicalities, most all of them are wrong. None of the individual parameters alone make the difference, although the ad people like to perpetuate myths.
Just by changing the braces (location or material or temper) on a Bach (regardless of which one) we can completely change its playing characteristics. Changing the bell also makes a difference, as does changing the material. If we experiment with all three, we have almost unlimited possibilities. Add the lead pipe (and its respective material and bracing) ad we really have infinity.
Morale of the story, just play the damn things, check out what Bach put together, Getzen, Schilke, Monette, whatever. They all have a different product not because of bore ore bell or braces, they are different because of how they deal with all of the parameters. There is no common denominator except for the artisan!
Well, I am heading out the door right now to try a Bach Strad 180S 72 bell (standard weight) along side a standard weight 43 bell and a 37 bell (all 180S). The shop just got the 72 in from the opposite side of the country so I could try it out for comparison sake. Will let you know what I found.
Other than that, I guess I was thinking more or less in a 'custom' trumpet where I can pick my own bore size, as example, the Strad 180S 43 that is 0.459, I just custom get that in a 0.470, all else being the same as a standard...
In that sense I wondered why me as the player would ask to get the larger bore size and all else being equal, what would THAT do, or would it stuff the entire thing up.
O, the reason why I thought I understood was based on this comment you made
"The bore size itself increases the total volume of air in the horn and that acts like a low pass filter, damping high frequencies. All other factors being the same, this would lead to a slightly darker tone which gives us the IMPRESSION that it sounds "bigger"."
Does that not say if everything is perfectly identical, by just changing 1 aspect of the trumpet (being the bore size) it would darken the sound compare to a smaller bore sized trumpet with identical dimensions/specs/material thickness etc
I have a medium bore Mt Vernon Bach and a medium large bore early Elkhart Bach. I make the same mistakes on both.
My flugel has a .413 bore and I'll hazard a guess that my horn is "darker" than your trumpet. But, you're all wrong. MAGIC ! is the answer and the guys hammering out the horns have been using it for centuries. Don't give it another thought.
Good! Share your findings!
Well I am back and have tried the 72 Bell. 37 and 43.
My finding is as follows (and its almost impossible to explain a sound but I will do my best)
180S 37 - Bright when playing quiet compare to a 43. Give the trumpet a harder blow to get more volume, and the sound rather than changing color just gets louder. It kinda sounds to me narrow/focused sounding. If you think about a Stereo system playing Mono/Stereo sound, the 37 sounds mono (compare to the 43). In this sense I call it a thinner sound, does not have a lot of body to it, kinda sounds held back/compressed, less ringy.
180S 43 - Sounds darker (woolier/warmer) than the 37 when playing quiet. Also, harder to keep the sound sounding the same than the 37 (more control needed thus harder to play), however, when you give it a mouth full, the 43 really pops open, brightens up the same (if not more so) than the 37. Perhaps its the contrast from dark (soft blowing) to bright (hard blowing) that makes it seem like its brighter than the 37. The 43 has a big/broad sound (Stereo), and it really rings when you push it. Compare to the 37 the 43 seems to have a bigger contrast between warm/bright and thus when you blow soft and then increase the strength of the blow the 43 goes WWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH compare to that of the 37 which is not as "WAH-ish". To me I like the 43 because of this compare to the 37. If I want Dark, I just play soft and control it, if I want bright, I just push the air harder and control to keep it there. If I want dynamics for music creativity, I feel I get more from the 43 because of that bigger contrast from dark/bright than the 37.
180S 72 - Big sounding like the 43. Broad sounding like the 43. Powerful down low in tone, very growly when the air is pushed (like the 43). However what I found was, when I went to the 3rd space C up to the F and really pushed the air through the 72, it also did not pop open as much as the 43 does. Again, not as "wah-ish" as the 43. Its got a good solid base, sound really sticks together, but when I push it, I am in my brain expecting this nice brilliance to come out and it doesn't out of the 72, again feels 'held back'. To explain that, I played a cornet, and no matter how much I blew in it, it never pops open in terms of brightness, it always keeps its mellow sound, like someone stuck a sock in the front and it just does not want to open up. The 72 kinda reminds me of that, while down low very similar to the 43. So perhaps I see it as a darker sounding horn. To me it sounds a bit stuffy at the 3rd space C. It is a beautiful horn but when I push it, it just doesnt 'pop' open like the 43.
Stradivarius 180S 37 - darkish-bright when playing soft-hard. Does not sound very broad, much more focused, rather than having a wall of sound, wrapping around you, you can pinpoint where its coming from. Nice all the way through soft-hard playing low-high notes.
Stradivarius 180S 43 - Darker than 37-bright(er) than 37 when playing soft-hard. Sounds very open on low space C as well as top space. It 'really' rings and thus sounds very big/broad compare to the 37. Sound very much wraps around you.
Stradivarius 180S 72 - Dark like 43 down low-darker than 43 when playing soft-hard. Sounds very open on low C, Big broad sounding compare to 37 on lower notes however 3rd space C and higher, the 72 starts to sound stuffy, does not pop open like the 37 or the 43. Doesnt seem to ring that much up there while it rings plenty given enough blow down low.
So to my conclusion the 43 was the nicest one. It offers the 72 Big sound sound down low and dark sound but really pops open when you give it air and brightens up very nicely. However, I found this to be the hardest one to control because my sound goes WAH WAH WAH WAH WAH if Im not thinking.
Hope that somewhat makes sense.
72 Good down low (rings well when air put through), dark up top.
37 is backwards, doesnt ring that well down low but rings nicely and brightly up top.
43 seems to combine the 37/72. Rings down low, darkly, but really pops open and rings up top as well nice and brightly.