BREAKTHROUGH!!! (I have finally broken the embouchure code. I think.)

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by Sabutin, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. thebugleboy

    thebugleboy Pianissimo User

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    I didn't feel Chetfan was beating up on Rowuk, and I didn't notice Rowuk having a chip on his shoulder. Sabutin, on the other hand, carries a big stick...on his shoulder. Sam was getting on everyone's nerves I believe. But I'll shut up about that now.
    What I really wanted to say is to Chetfan. This is probably the best place, in my opinion anyway, to bring up this topic. Chet Baker is a good example of determination and repitition building stone chops. I have played with old jazz men who's teeth had vacated their domicile long before I entered the musical world, and those guys were true masters of tone and technique. I have mentioned in other threads that I quit playing a good while back because of an injury. When I started back, my dental situation had changed, but not for the better. I have been able to build quicker and more solidly than I was ever able to in my younger years. The only positive change in my situation is in my mindset. I decided I would work harder and more steady, using better practice habits than before. Even with many of the "bad" habits and physical challenges, I am better than before (I know, you're thinking, "He must have stunk before!"...LOL). But the point is that Rowuk and others are completely correct. It is the constant, steady, repetitive, dedicated practice workout with much attention to habits formed or forming (out with the bad, in with the good). I knew an old jazzman with one leg, breathing problems, sinus trouble, no teeth, and playing a borrowed horn who could teach us all about embouchure development. AND he couldn't even explain to you what an embouchure is. BUT he sure had one. I always told my students, if you want to play, I can teach you to be a good musician; but if you HAVE to play, you will find a way to become a great musician without me. I also told them that if there was any way they could talk themselves out of being in my program, if there was anything they could imagine they would rather do, please do so. If they could not possibly make themselves quit, I knew I had a great core group in them. We know teeth are important as a support structure for the embouchure, but not having all of them should not keep a dedicated horn man/woman from becoming great. It was said that a very small percentage of professionals manage the ultra high range well. Is this some special technique? I notice some high note screamers have more "bad habits" than I do. I also notice that they never quit trying for that elusive riff or note or tonal effect. They also didn't listen or believe when the "experts" told them "You will never do it." Of course, an "ex" is an old has-been, and a "spurt" is just a drip under pressure. So I'll name my brothers here who advise me well "masters" and not "ex-spurts." I have read some "ex-spurt" comments lately. I was not impwessed (Tweety).
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    This thread is a tribute to the greatness of Trumpetmaster. Where else can a trombone player go to, post something ridiculous and get 100+ replies and 2000 views in 2 days? I looked around and think we need to be careful. None of the trombone sights have traffic like this! We could end up with other similar loud ones!

    For the record: I am a proud American that has been living in Germany since the mid 70's. I got my musical training at a name brand music school in upstate New York but really learned how to play the trumpet here. The old german school is significant in its comprehensiveness and attention to detail. At that time there was not the obsession with sound, rather timing and articulation.

    I have attended many master classes and one thing really denotes the creme of the crop: HUMILITY. Bud Herseth, Gil Johnson, Maurice André, Michael Laird, Derek Watkins, Ack van Rooyen to name a few "world class" teachers make no claims to having unlocked any code. They teach what works for them, and they all have something different. I expect seasoned players to post reasonably. Bold claims are generally a sign of less than first or even second class.

    Sam could have started something special, instead he took what little good his "message" could have given and flushed it down the toilet with his attitude. If I hadn't examined oral cavity resonance many years ago, I would have asked questions.

    Vulgano Brother, I still believe that the trumpet is essentially acoustically closed. The leakage of our air is only there to keep us from hyperventilating or suffocating. The mismatched horn design lets the internal resonance escape, giving our audiences something to listen to.
     
  3. thebugleboy

    thebugleboy Pianissimo User

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    Again, well put.
     
  4. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    The devolution of this thread is a testament to something about this site, I will agree with that much.

    You can keep sniping all you like, rowuk. I am no longer taking anything that you or any of your little helpers say seriously.

    I will post to this thread again when I have progressed a little further in my experiments on this matter, solely in the interest of reaching people who sincerely want to know more about it. For those here who do not want to read the foolishness that has arisen on this thread through the efforts of a couple of people, feel free to go to the following sites where I will be posting the same things that I post here. On none of them has this sort of viciously insane feeding frenzy arisen.

    The Trumpet Herald

    The Virtual Trumpet Studio

    Tuba-Euph,com

    The Trombone Forum

    And my own site, The Open Horn.

    See ya in a few days or so...

    Sam

    P.S. I do keep trying.

    Bet on it.
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Sam,
    I guess you still don't get it. We are VERY interested in things brass, but have a unique way of dealing with large amounts of air.
    Your biggest problem was the long posts with more attitude than content.
    The second issue is your unwillingness to take an objective look at your own baby.
    The third issue has a bit to do with credibility. A seasoned player (1st call you say) that is so out of touch with their playing that after 40 years a major step forward in a short time is possible does not really generate confidence.
    Finally, you appear feel a need to "defend" something. That implies that you think that you were attacked - perhaps even a victim. Nothing could be further from the truth. Your abusive manners made us the victims.

    There are many holes in your hypothesis which does not mean that there is no hope. You got off to a bad start. You can change that when you come back. If the abuse continues, I will lock the thread down. If the oTHer sites work for you, fine. That is the beauty of the internet - freedom of choice.

    Like I posted before, I did a fair amount of research on oral cavity resonance many years ago. My interest was based on a myth that we were told in music school. It had to do with the influence of the mother tongue on playing. The stories about teutonic sound, Hispanics having thin sound but quick tongues, Frenchmen with light articulation, Russians with dark but a bit rough sounds. Plenty of prejudice. I did find a bit on articulation, but none of the other factors could be attributed to origin or language. Range was also one of the parameters that I studied. Again, nothing significant. Heck, there wasn't even a correlation between mouthpiece and lip size.

    So if I take the liberty in an open internet forum to point out some of the stuff you chose/choose to ignore, does that make me the enemy? I would prefer to think that the education could prove beneficial for you to find the REAL reason on how your playing got better.

    PM me any time if you need more info. No need to reinvent the wheel.
     
  6. thebugleboy

    thebugleboy Pianissimo User

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    Rowuk, while we're roughly on the topic of air flow, (your personal opinion of course here) what works best for you for a lead mouthpiece (if you use such an animal)? I'm curious as to how different an idea we have of what feels right. Of course I know it's a personal thing. I'd just like to know what other serious minded players are choosing today. I'm finding many things have changed during my absence from the trumpet world, but many things will remain constant...in my opinion. I could start a new thread for this, but I really don't intend to beat this probably overwhipped horse. All I want is for a few people to mention what feels good and works for them. I'm not going to give opinions. I'm just going to read the mail and digest the info. You might mention how your choice relates to a Schilke or Bach size since I had used mostly Schilke in the past. I'll be going shopping soon, so I'll be reading with interest. Lead MP only. I have my old faithful beauty.
    Thanks everybody.
     
  7. Pedal C

    Pedal C Mezzo Forte User

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    Wow. Quite a thread.

    We have Sabutin, who may or may not be on to something, but he hasn't really given us any way or method to try it out. Maybe that's not really possible in text form. Fine. But something to actually DO, rather than theory would be nice.

    And then we have have a bunch of others, crying nonsense based upon very little actual information from Mr. Sabutin. That's going a lot farther out on that limb than I'd be willing to go.

    Let's assume Sabutin's resluts are real. What's more important? Explaning that it was due to the oral cavity, or formants, or the coriolis effect or whatever. Or learning a method that works, even if it works for totally different reasons. One way gives people a change to get better at the trumpet, the other leads to an 11 page thread explaining why something that hasn't been fully presented can't possibly work.

    I'm not the type to try every new method that comes along, but I'm curious enough to listen, if there's any real method to listen to.
     
  8. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Thank you--point well taken. Still some promise in this thread, although it seems to be leaving....
     
  9. Bachstul

    Bachstul Mezzo Forte User

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    I'm posting a new thread

    "The Trumpets are Closed?"

    but wait! there's more!
     
  10. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    For me, the question isn't so much about what feels good at the chops, but what feels good one-half the bell diameter away from the bell. That is where the nodes meet outside the trumpet, and if you can intuit them, a nifty reference point. If you can "feel" your sound projecting out to there, then you can really start comparing mouthpieces!
     

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