BREAKTHROUGH!!! (I have finally broken the embouchure code. I think.)

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by Sabutin, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    See reply #115 on pg. 12 of this thread, Sofus.

    They're up on YouTube.

    "Things are going" just fine with them, thanks so much for asking. The curious are looking into the idea, and the incurious are sniping at it.

    Just as it's always been.

    Just as it's always been.

    Sigh.

    Why do you ask?

    S.
     
  2. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    And precisely what is it that you find "closed-minded" about what I am doing here, gdbeamer?

    I am defending the results of years of very open-minded exploration of brass playing against a critic who has obviously already made up his mind about any number of things.

    Nothing more.

    If someone came on here and presented some sort of real, usable evidence or a useful appproach to this question that is different than mine, I wouuld be first in line to try it.

    In fact, that did happen on my own discussion forum, The Open Horn. Two weeks ago. (Reply #35 on this page.)

    ===============================================

    Y'know what, Matt?

    Me too. I just haven't posted on it yet because I'm still experimenting. I have no problem with resetting...it just works better when I simply sing. I have been vocally isolating the right overtones for whatever note on which I am starting, putting the horn on my chop and the buzz seems to start almost automatically. I have also messed around a little with singing the note (w/the right formants) in the horn with my chop set to play. The jury's still out on that one, but then I have so far found very little time to spend on it.

    More as this thing progresses.

    S.

    =============================================

    I am open to suggestions. That is why I am posting here. Reasoned suggestions, not just knee-jerk negative potshotting. Suggestions that have come from open-minded, physical examination of the approach.

    Like Matt's above.

    Bet on it.

    S.
     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    To be honest, Mr. Sam, you really don't know what you are talking about. I will try and explain:

    When singing, formants are formed with the mouth and tongue. For that to happen, you need vibrating air before anything can be formed. The vocal chords handle that. The air moves from your lungs, across the vocal chords on to the mouth where the magic takes place.

    When you play the trombone, your vocal chords are wide open (preferably not vibrating unless you are Albert Mangelsdorffs ghost) letting the air from your lungs travel to the lips. It is a no brainer: no basic vibration, no possibility for modulation, no formants. They don't dissappear, they are never there in the first place unless you sing when you are playing.

    Even if there were a formant created in your mouth by some freak of nature, when you attach a brass instrument to your face, the resistance to airflow by the instrument would stop it just like if you closed your mouth. The lips do not vibrate as such, they open and close like a switch. Also something not found in singing. Check out this link:
    IWK Brass Research

    I did not say that there was no difference, I said that what you describe is not what is happening and a half a page of trashing me does not change that. If you are interested in the truth, talk to anyone that builds horn loudspeakers. They will tell you what a chamber of air placed before or behind the motor (speaker) will do. That is also what happens with our lips. Fairly simple physics.

    I am aware of the vocal overtones technique. I have been singing counter-tenor almost as long as I have been playing trumpet and am very involved in modern singing practices. It does not and can not apply the way you claim.

    One last point. We all now know what you think of criticism and how you react. If the nature of your posting remains abusive, goodbye is in order. It would make more sense for you to perhaps consider the physical realities instead of damning the messenger.

    There are enough qualified people in this world that do not need miracles or wishful thinking to get good results. If you spend some time looking, you may even find out why your mouthwork improved your playing. It wasn't formants.
     
  4. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

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    Hey Rowuk,

    Do you know if these studies have ever been translated in english? There is some really interesting stuff in there, but my german is too baseic to handle it in german.
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Unfortunately only bits and pieces have been translated. Pictures do speak a thousand words though.

    I haven't found anything similar in english although I find it hard to believe with all of the trumpet playing music majors that this stuff was never in a doctoral dissertation.

    If any TMer would be interested in taking this up for a doctorate, let me know. I'll help where I can.
     
  6. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    YouTube-Boomer Natural DIGERIDOO Meditation Healer Didge not Yidaki

    What he said.

    You said:

    And I said...14 pages ago and several other times in similarly easily understood ways thereafter:

    Several posts of resistance to this idea that are based on a totally incomplete understanding of both what i am doing and how I am explaining what i am doing does not change the easily understood meaning of that statement. I am simply using the vocal overtone production technique to tune up my resonance cavity in such a way that it couples with playing the horn in a more highly efficient manner than I have ever before found.

    Tell that to the digeridoo players.

    No sir, we do not. We all know now how I react to criticism that wears a superficial coat that says “EXPERT” on its back but does not stand up to thorough examination.

    It has often been said that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. On the web, banning is the last refuge of the powerful who do not get their way. You brand yourself...and this site, which contains much good information and many serious seekers of brass knowledge...by this threat, and in the long run it would be to the detriment of this site to go through with it. Feel free, though. It is either “your” site or you think that it is. Your call. I will continue to develop and disperse this particular information....and much more...quite effectively with or without this site. Anyone who wishes to do so can simply come over to my own site...The Open Horn (Which was founded, by the way, on a “No banning” principle and has successfully followed that policy for over 6 years.)...and watch this topic’s growth there.

    You call me “abusive”. That is abusive, as have been your posts on this thread from your very first dismissive “Here we go again/.Nice try” post on page 5, Reply 48. I am sure that you “know” a great deal about the theory of brass playing. but I remain unconvinced that the theory...yours or most of the rest of the laboratory action that I have seen over the years regarding brass playing...has a damned thing to do with actually learning how to play a brass instrument. i have spent 40 years playing with the finest jazz, studio, B’way and latin players in NYC, from Joe Wilder and Snooky Young right on through Thad Jones, Jon Faddis, Victor Paz, Jimmy Maxwell, Jimmy Buffington, John Clarke, Jimmy Knepper, Britt Woodman, Urbie Green, Paul Faulise, Dave Taylor, Don Butterfield, Howard Johnson and Bob Stewart (not to mention literally hundreds of others whose names might not be so instantly recognizable) plus studying extensively with Carmine Caruso, eventually moving into his apartment building and spending many, many hours with him just hanging out, and I have never once heard any of them reference the words “research” or “laboratory” in connection with playing a brass instrument. But on the web? Why, research is king!!!

    I don’t buy it.

    None of it.

    The real players know things that all the lab techs and theoreticians in their “expert” coats cannot even begin to discover.

    Yup.

    They are the ones from whom I have learned.

    Their “qualifications”?

    They can do it, and they have done it over a long enough period of time to prove that what they are doing is not simply an accident.

    If you spent some time reading what I actually wrote and trying to understand it rather than pontificating, you would realize that what I said was simply about “a way to set up my own inner resonance system...chest, throat, back of tongue, soft palate, the rest of the tongue, jaw position, lips, etc...so that when I freebuzz any given note the setting(s) for that note are the most efficient ones possible for me to achieve.”

    If you persist in intimating that the actual setup of that inner resonance system has no appreciable effect on the overtones that are being emphasized above a given note...well, like I said above...

    What he said.

    I got yer laboratory.

    Right here.

    YouTube - Didgeridoo Tutorials Beginner (3) - learn how to play

    Later...

    S.
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I wish you good luck. It is a shame that you are not able to take an objective look at what you are doing.

    I guess the threat must be pretty great to spend so much time on me. You also assume that goodbye means a ban. That makes me smile. Why should I spoil anybodies fun? We have an ignore feature here. That is much better than banning.

    Yes, the didgeridoo also obeys simple easily explainable laws of physics. No need for me to get into that. You aren't interested.

    As far as me being trapped, you will never know. Goodbye blind man.
     
  8. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    You wrote:

    Lockdown, banning...more semantics. Same result. An aim to threaten. To intimidate.

    Not me, though.

    Bet on it.

    Hit on that ignore button.

    Please!!!

    This ongoing thread piracy is nasty.

    It is also way beneath the general tenor of this site.

    Thanks...

    S.
     
  9. Rich Wetzel

    Rich Wetzel Pianissimo User

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    These boards are for people to share ideas, for open discussion, and ultimately all the users can make up their own minds about any of these concepts.

    Do people sometimes disagree on these types of forums? Yes, the main thing is to keep it all civil.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2009
  10. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    I agree wholeheartedly. That's why I posted this material in the first place, so that people could make up their minds by individual, careful and most importantly physical examination of the concepts...not theoretical but practical examination...and in so doing help me to get somewhere with them as well.

    Once again...I meet civility with civility, always and everywhere. Rowuk started out rudely dismissive and only got more so. I will not take that sort of action lying down, nor should I be asked to do so.

    Disagree? Fine. Suggest better ways to do things? Great!!! Dismiss without thorough examination? Not on my watch.

    Thanks for your support...

    Sam
     

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