BREAKTHROUGH!!! (I have finally broken the embouchure code. I think.)

Discussion in 'Trumpet Pedagogy' started by Sabutin, Aug 7, 2009.

  1. thebugleboy

    thebugleboy Pianissimo User

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    What he said! (Rowuk)
    Bob

    I discovered a major embouchure breakthrough once. I brokethrough some lazy workout and playing habits.

    Bob again
     
  2. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    Nice try!!!???

    How dismissive of you. You do not have the first clue about what I am doing...you certainly haven’t tried it, at least not very well because I have not presented it in a really “tryable” manner yet....but your mind is made up.

    Good work.

    Yes, chops...of all kinds...are the result of good habits. What I have found is a better way to develop those good habits, and it is a way that has reinforced and improved my other good habits to a point that has continued to amaze me every time I have picked up my instrument over a period of about 6 weeks now. This after 40+ years of serious success as a high-end freelance brass player in New York City.

    Nice try?

    Thank you so very much.

    You have it all figured out, don't you? You know all the science; you have all the terms straight. You know what I am doing better than I do, apparently.

    Sorry rowuk...you are way off base here. What I am doing works for me; in preliminary explorations it has worked for other people, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with my (or their) "emotional makeup".

    I can tell you one thing for sure. It's not going to help you, because you have it all figured out already. You're in that wonderful safe zone, aren't you? Best of luck there. I prefer the frontier, myself.

    You're right.

    Don't come out here. Like in the old maps..."Here there be dragons."

    Change only happens when minds are open.

    Bet on it.

    For those reading this thread whose minds are open...stay tuned. Interesting things are coming.

    For those who are not interested...so it goes and good luck with your playing. I mean that. The new is not for everybody, and as long as you do not attack what I am trying to do I have no quarrel with whatever works for you.

    Peace.

    It’s what’s for dinner.

    Later...

    S.
     
  3. thebugleboy

    thebugleboy Pianissimo User

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    I'm not intending to attack, and I didn't think Rowuk sounded like he was attacking either. He was giving, as you stated that you were, his studied and practiced advice.
    It's just my opinion, but it appears that you, Sabutin, are on this forum for one purpose, and that is financial fulfillment. That would be rather troll-like in my humble opinion. There are forums for one to promote books, methods, and other aspects of that financial fulfillment. There are many opinions expressed here, and there are many disagreements as to the best method, instrument, or even artist, but I don't find the other fellows getting their shorts in a wad this way. I come on the forum for enlightenment and fellowship. I have some experience and have had some career success, but I would never claim to have THE magic bullet. Maybe the subject is like drag racing. So what if you do have the technology to build a car that will make 330 mph in a quarter mile? I would still rather race my doorbanger that's also a daily driver. It's a real car. The high tech cars are fine. No argument. But I like the time going down the track to really get a race on with the other car. I'm never going to give these singing techniques a thought while I'm enjoying my workout with my horns. I don't need "aids" in my relationship with my instruments. We get along just fine.
     
  4. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    I am on this site to share my knowledge, bugleboy. Do a cursory google search of my posts on the web under the name of "sabutin". I have freely shared everything that I know on mailing lists and web forums for over 10 years. Check it out.

    Great.

    Race your clunker and have fun.

    But don't be signifying on people who are trying to deal with real speed.

    Without us you'd be driving a horse and buggy.

    Bet on it.

    AG
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Rather testy today?

    Sabutin,
    I am not dismissive. What you report on just does not represent a quantum jump or unlocking of any "code" to me. You have been a first call for xx years, that gives you
    a solid pattern of habits that eliminate the possibility of "quick and dramatic changes" - at least related to your chops.

    I measure success in months and years, so we can further discuss your "method" after it has withstood the test of time on "patients" other than yourself. I would not be so quick about eliminating the "emotional or spiritual side however. I too have been working with amateurs pros for many years and have found that the "secret" is to improve where there is room for improvement and that is almost NEVER the chops rather the body use.

    By the way, if you won't accept criticism, if you don't address my points, rather attack me, how can we take you seriously? I don't have it all figured out. One thing has been a common denominator though: new methods claiming big things need to be able to withstand scrutiny and have answers for what I wrote. Address how you overcome habits. Address the balance of air pressure on the lips, address turbulence. Address formants in a closed system.
    Tuuuuh, Taaaah and Teeeeh were covered by Arban over a century ago.
     
  6. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Is it a closed system? (As I understand it, equilibrium occurs at the point of maximal entropy.) Maybe one of our wave-partical scientist members can comment, but I consider trumpet playing an "open" system--science and voodoo are on equal terms, and THE ART OF MUSIC has as much in common with voodoo than it does science.

    Some stuff we need to qualify, some quantify.

    I'm still in the qualifying stage in this thread, and do indeed wish to quantify, but later.

    Time might tell.
     
  7. thebugleboy

    thebugleboy Pianissimo User

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    Sabutin, you claim your book and method is very well received. I ask, why then do you state that you can not afford to have a video made? If you are so technologically advanced, why do you claim to have so much trouble making photo files? Personally, I am well able to build a thrasher funnycar. I happen to be, in addition to a schooled and practiced musician, a master automotive technician and metal worker. These things I do because it's "in my blood." I choose the romance of discipline and enjoying the journey. I build things you can not imagine. Technology does not scare me. But neither does it rule me. I dislike the sameness of perfection. But you do not in any of your writings here prove any of your hypotheses. There is nothing wrong with being a hypothesist, as long as the theory is not presented as fact. If you only knew who I really am...
     
  8. thebugleboy

    thebugleboy Pianissimo User

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    Vulgano, I belive we use the term equilibrium here relatively and in a liberal manner for the effect of imagery. Considering the venturi effect in a carburetor (one with a variable venturi) might well illustrate Rowuks statement. Your statement of qualification and quantification is well taken, and is the subject of the requests on this forum, I believe.
     
  9. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    No...quite relaxed, actually. Everything is going along just fine in my life, thanks for asking. I simply will not passively suffer through being baselessly contradicted about something that has essentially been my life's work.

    I'm like that, rowuk.

    In the Bronx they call that being a stand-up guy.

    Deal wid it.

    Wonderful.

    You thoroughly dismiss what I am saying in the same paragraph that you say you are not being dismissive.

    Great work.

    How about this version:

    I like that one better, because that is precisely what has happened. Furthermore, my 40+ years of serious study of the horn and successful playing and teaching ought to give one pause when tempted to dismiss what I am saying as some sort of self-delusion.

    I look forward to that test of time. There is no way that I can rush it, though. Time will roll along as it must, and the proof is always in the pudding. Meanwhile, my own extensive experience in teaching others what I know suggests to me that this is going to work very, very well for any number of players.

    Two 20-something young brass players came over to my place yesterday. One of them was going to buy my new book, the other was just hanging with him. Both are graduates of Manhattan School of Music and both are presently working pros in NYC. Both grasped this technique in about 15 minutes with no hesitation or resistance whatsoever. Youth has its advantages. Here is an email that I just received from one of them:

    That is the reaction that i am getting from every good player so far to whom I have personally demonstrated this technique.

    It blows their mind.

    In the case of what I have observed in my own playing over the preceding several weeks, I on the other hand am quite certain that any and all emotional changes that may have occurred in my life have in fact been driven by this wonderful change in the way that I am playing the horn.

    To put it country simple rowuk, I am one happy brass fella. Why? Because I have finally turned the key in a lock on which I have been working for many, many years. That's the long and the short of it. Dismiss that if you wish, the fact remains that I will still be grinning like a young fool when I pick up my horns because I am suddenly able to consistently access ranges and sounds that were essentially unavailable to me less than two months ago.

    Dismiss that?

    Feel free.

    Who am I to be so happy?

    Chops, body...where does one end and the other begin? Damned if I know. The fact remains that when I tune up my resonance cavity using this overtone singing technique and couple it successfully to the horn, my "chops" work better than they ever have in my life up to this point in time. It is a simple, one-to-one relationship, and I am now...quite successfully, I might add...in the process of internalizing that feel so that I do not have to do the singing part of the process in order to get that particular set of balances in my body. I am in a period of late summer weeks that is quite slow in terms of work, so I have plenty of time to practice...6 to 8 hours a day, most days...and the aforementioned process is going very well.

    Very well indeed.

    I will not accept baseless criticism, rowuk, and other than that I am not "attacking" you at all. You are the one who has come in here and essentially told me that I am delusional. You write "...if you don't address my points...how can we take you seriously?" I am addressing your points...point by point and fact by fact...and you persist in treating my "facts", how I relate my direct experiences, as fictions. So it goes. You are apparently not going to take me seriously no matter what I do or say because you have quite obviously already made up your mind that what I am saying is impossible. Feel free to be as dismissive as you wish, just don't complain when I do not lie down and beg for mercy.

    Scrutinize to your heart's content, sir. Come on over to my practice attic in the Bronx and if your mind is still as capable of being blown as were those of the two young players that I mentioned above, I most certainly will blow it. Bet on it. Short of my continuing efforts over the next several years in this regard...and I am already in the process of researching how to best make a good video recording of this thing...my only possible "answers" lie in what I am writing here or personal contact.

    Address your own cynicism, sir.

    Arban been dead for over a century, too.

    Things do progress, y'know.

    I got yer "formants", right HERE!!! (As he plays a relatively effortless, good sounding and quite powerful 16th partial concert A on his favorite large m'pce which 6 weeks ago simply did not work very well up there. An A which works even better in the 17th partial, by the way. Analyze that? Why? I can use it.)

    Analyze to your heart's content, rowuk. Analysis will always lag behind the progressing reality of things. I have gotten on the front of a very interesting wave this month and am presently surfing it quite joyfully. Analyze the wave's magnitude, its frequencies, the way I stand on the surfboard, how the board is made, whether it is even possible to surf the way I am surfing and whatever other negative factors that you can find to support your position that what I am doing cannot possibly be what I say that I am doing. That is apparently your job in life and it appears to me that you do it quite well.

    My job, however, is to ride the waves.

    See ya when I reach the beach.

    Later...

    S.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  10. Sabutin

    Sabutin Pianissimo User

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    My finances are my business sir, not yours. I want to make a video with very high quality audio capabilities because I am dealing with subtle overtones. I spent quite a while on the phone today with someone who knows what he is doing in this regard...a real high-level NYC TV pro...and he is coming over this week to see hear what it is that I wish to record. Stay tuned. Or not. As you must.

    Where did I claim to be "technologically advanced", bugleboy? In point of fact I usually refer to myself as a cyber-idiot, actually, although I am capable of stumbling through to the finish line on most computer problems through sheer, stubborn continuation of effort.

    And when diid I claim to be unable to make photo files?

    Oh!!! Please!!! Tell me who you are!!!

    Unbelievable.

    Enough...go build your cars; I will go build my embouchure and the best of luck to both of us.

    Later...

    S.
     

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