buzzing from 2 sources at a time?! observations from a complete beginner!!

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by xelaris, Jan 20, 2009.

  1. xelaris

    xelaris New Friend

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    Jan 19, 2009
    Lovevixen...thanks for your comments. I've just ordered a second hand set of 4 different mouthpieces.
    Anyhow, I don't really see a problem in being able to buzz from 3 different sources. Certainly producing 2 buzzs at the same time doesn't give a very good tone (it's horrible!). I didn't realize I was doing it until I tried buzzing without the mouthpiece. Now, being aware of that, I can buzz from the center, and also slightly aside from the center on both left and right sides just by twiching the lips slightly. It's like having a set of 3 mouths which can be switched on/off at will. Each with it's strenght and weaknesses. That can't be wrong!
    Anyhow, certain concerns aren't for me...why hiring someone? For what? I'm not really playing the trumpet to become an accomplished/professional trumpet player...it's more a sort of self discovery...as long as I'm interested and intrigued that's fine with me. Some play playstation, I got this cornet!;-)
     
  2. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    If you really want to DYI why are you asking for advice that you don't want to listen to. If you really want this to be a "learning" experience, I say go ahead. If you want help, In addition to very solid advice allready given, I'll say that from what you've described, you are putting the rim on the red of your top lip. If you want to know why this is a problem, just be ready to listen. This could also be the source of your double buzz.
     
  3. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

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    Jul 26, 2008
    One thing indicating that your lip position on the mouthpiece
    is wrong is when you can reach high notes like you do, but not
    reach the lowest notes. The lowest (normal notes, not pedals)
    note on your trumpet is a F# below the staff. If you can play
    high C but not play this low F# without changing lip position,
    the position is wrong. One must be able to play from the lowest
    note to the highest notes within ones range without changing
    anything.
     
  4. xelaris

    xelaris New Friend

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    Jan 19, 2009
    No disrespect, but it seems that you haven't really read my messages...the double buzz isn't a problem as such (instead I hoped for an opportunity to be exploited) and I noticed it when practicing WITHOUT THE MOUTHPIECE...then, I wasn't really asking for a solution to any problem, just a feedback.
    Now, I know how to avoid the double buzz and that's it...it seems that unless the double buzzing are harmonically related they only give rise to noise...yet, sometimes a bit of noise might be just as useful :cool:
     
  5. xelaris

    xelaris New Friend

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    Jan 19, 2009
    Thank for your advice...
    I'm going to check this today. I can play the whole range but never checked if the position of my mouth changes as I play different pitches....and most of the time (nearly all of it recently) is spent on the higher range.
    btw: I figured out, that my cornet playing get a lot easier when practicing just after playing sax for 1 hour or more.
     
  6. willbarber

    willbarber Piano User

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    Nov 22, 2008
    Medina, NY
    I used to play like that. and I got that double buzz after a while, when it was almost too late to fix it. I moved up there to play higher, and I suggest you move back, and develop properly.
     
  7. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    It does not matter if the note is in tune the manner in which it was produced is relavant. Their is not Good End from Evil Means!! In this case it is not evil it is just so grossly wrong that no good can come from it. I mean you did want to learn to actualy play the trumpet correct??? What you are doing would be like me takeing my hand and pushing down on the back of the reed or the front to get a sound I want. At point while playing the sax should my finger be pushing down ont he reed even if it does make me sound better. Just like sticking your hand in the end of a trumpet to solve intonation issues is not the way to solve intonation issues! It is proper for a French Horn but not a trumpet. If you do not want to learn to actualy play your trumpet then why did you get it and come to this site? I mean just because you play Alto Sax does not mean you can just ignore every sound playing principle that has been worked out over the last 4000 years or trumpets being played. Their is a right way and a wrong way and sometimes their is some gray area but in this case it is not a matter of gray you are just doing it completly wrong.

    I did address the multiple buzzing. It is common but not often felt. Look at some slow motion footage of lips buzzing in a mouthpiece. The rate of vibration is different from the outside of the lip to the apature. All we care about is the rate at wich the apature is pulseing. If you can feel the difference between the apature and outer edges of the lip that still inthe cup area fine but that does not make it meaningful in any way it is a side a ffect of the nature of the lip and it's elasticity and design. Notice your lips are not a single thickness from corner to corner they vary usualy being a lot thicker inthe center then at the ends. This taper account for the difference in vibrational speed. It really is not a hard concept to grasp we are talking 5 th grade phyical science not some complex Quantum Physics no advanced math or anything needed. If you have ever seen a Body Blade exercise device it is thick inthe middle then tapers tot he edges. You hold it in the center and ociaslate it to work your muscles. The ends deflect more and at greater velocity and freq. then the center portion that is thick that you are grasping it by. It is because of the design which in this case is almost a mirror image of the indivdual lips upper and bottom. Lie wise your lips have nodes and anti-node hence the reason why mouth piece rim profile makes such a huge difference for many but not so much for other's. Depending on how you lip vibrates and where the nodes and anti-nodes are located the contact or lack their of from the rim could make all the difference in the world.
     
  8. willbarber

    willbarber Piano User

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    Nov 22, 2008
    Medina, NY
    I don't think they were talking about buzzing in 2 places horizontally.
    I interpreted it as the problem I had, where the lips were buzzing at 2 rates, creating a double buzz, which sounds bad.
    When they said they put the mouthpiece in the same position I had it a couple years ago, i though it might be the same problem.
     
  9. xelaris

    xelaris New Friend

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    Jan 19, 2009
    Willbarber....that's exactly what I meant...the 2 buzzings where happening horizontally. That's probably because right in the middle of my upper lip there is an "indentation" (just like an M shaped upper lip) which seals better against the lower lip than the immediate areas (hence the 2 buzzs slightly off centered) on the left and right of it.
    Apparently it's not that common and as I pointed out earlier this double buzz as it stands is rather useless (and noisy)...but I like the fact that now I can switch from left/right/centre independently to obtain a SINGLE BUZZ from a different set of muscles to produce slightly different tones.
    Anyone, I guess, can have a go at trying to buzz from different areas of their mouth (e.g. from the corners), just for the sake of it.
    Unfortunatly most are bothered to trying something different (and bothered by anyone who dares to bring new ideas) for fear of upsetting their system and develop bad habits. Well, I respect your views, just don't transfer your irrational fears to those like myself who enjoy experimenting...if you don't have anything POSITIVE to add other than "Get a Tutor you Dimwit", just live this thread alone, please.
    Else, if anyone doesn't like having me here just let me know of another forum where these ideas could be better appreciated - yeah, even contemporary Circus entertainment would do....thanks - all I was asking was a bit of feedback...maybe someone out there had similar "skills" and capable of taking full advantage from it (e.g. having the 2 buzz vibrate at the same frequency of multiple of it)...apparently not!
     
  10. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    It has to happen horizontaly no ones lips vibrate in a verticle patern. By that I mean no organized or regularly repeated rytm of the lips is going to happen in a verticle plane. It is just not going to hapen the muscle in the face that control the lips are not going to easily allow movement paterns to begin and end in that fashion. This is just not an issue. Again your problem is not rare for beginners at all it is just that you level of awareness of it is unusualy high. I hope some of those 4 mouth pieces you ordered second hand have somethignother then the Bach rim profile of you will still have the same problem more then likely. Their is a reason why so many companies are makeing huge profits selling rim profiles that are nothing like the Bach profiles at all. I am one that thinks Bach got it wrong with his rim profile but got the rest of themouth piece preety darn right!
     

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