"C" Trumpet Wonderings.

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by paultandberg, Dec 11, 2012.

  1. jiarby

    jiarby Fortissimo User

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    I appreciate the enthusiasm you are showing... but the horn is NOT a shortcut to an end result. You can't buy a piccolo trumpet and play lead in the jazz band.
    You can't buy a C trumpet to get a whole step higher range. You can't swap from an 8335 to an 8310 and suddenly be a completely different beast.

    You have the chops or you don't. Jon Faddis will sound like Jon Faddis even on a Conn Director cornet with a 7C mpc.

    A lead player does want a suitable horn to fit their playing style, but not all lead players have the same style so there is no ONE recommendation for the perfect lead horn. Some like large bore lightweights. Some like step bore horns like the Shew you mentioned. Others like huge bells and loose slotting ... get it??

    Some jazz players like big dark horns like Botti (and legions of others like Chet Baker et al). Some guys like a brighter sound and more resistance to push against. Each has a different sound.

    I'd say that a flugelhorn would be a better buy than a second Bb for jazz solo purposes if you do not already have one.

    Unless your kid is seriously pursuing an orchestral path I don't imagine he will be getting much use from a C trumpet. If he IS considering that path he needs to be studying with a like minded pro teacher and beginning to practice playing Bb parts on C (and D parts on C) and also working on transposition books like the Sasche. also starting to tear through the Sachs Exercpts book... and Charlier!
     
  2. paultandberg

    paultandberg New Friend

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    jiarby,

    I get what you're saying, I do. But, how does a guy know what he likes/wants/needs unless he has the horn in hand and spends a lot of time with it.

    I play guitar. I have played guitar for what seems like my whole life. And I have learned that I can't judge a guitar until I have had it in my hands for a month, or three. Or ten. I have learned, the expensive way, that picking out a guitar in the brain-befuddling pleasure palace of a well-stocked guitar store is like picking out a wife in a dimly lit night club. What seems beyond great in the moment of passion can proves to be a pain in the ear, back, hand, or shoulder after a month or three of living time. It just takes time to tell, time to know, time. (of course, sometimes you do make your best decisions confused and in the dark)

    And I expect it is the same with trumpet. How would you whether or not you like a large bore, small bore, stepped bore, unless you spend a great deal of time getting to know how to work and play something that is new and different?

    True, after enough time, guitars, and horns have passed through your hands, you can tell much quicker what works and what doesn't. I now know I like OMs best and I have learned, finally, that it is best for me to leave those tempting, wonderful, 12-fret Dreads hanging on the wall because they raise heck with my shoulder, back, and, finally, my ears. And, while I know that I am, as I type this, in the process of talking myself into the fun of buying a horn, I do wonder if it might be good for Gus to have two such completely different trumpets, such as a light small or stepped bore, sports car of a Shew and the solid, dependable, true blue 8335G Cadillac. (which, of course, also means he should spend some time with a large bore horn at some point. sigh.)

    Now, while it might seem like I am reneging on the "I understand and agree with you" part I began with, I'm not. I do get your point. And I can understand the, "slow down, Dad, let your kid follow his nose (or ear) on this trumpet thing". But, I also do wonder, how can you learn what you like and what works for you unless you get to spend a lot of no pressure home time blowing away in your bedroom with it?


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    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  3. paultandberg

    paultandberg New Friend

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    (btw, I wish you hadn't mentioned fluglehorns. Would one of those ever be cool. It would be a whole new way of feeling your music.)
     
  4. entrancing1

    entrancing1 Mezzo Piano User

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    I think Dad is developing a case of N+1 :whistle:
     
  5. Ed Lee

    Ed Lee Utimate User

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    Next comes the mouthpiece "safari"
     
  6. jengstrom

    jengstrom Pianissimo User

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    Gosh, I wish my dad had been like you.

    Now that that's off my chest, my advice is that if you can find clean, used horns at reasonable prices, you will lose little if anything if you decide to sell.

    Rock on.

    -John
     
  7. jiarby

    jiarby Fortissimo User

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    Seriously... if you dont have a Flugelhorn you should buy that before you get a second Bb... the 8335 is perfectly servicable and you are going to have plenty of future horn buying opportunities in the next 4-6 years, especially when he hits college.
    A flugel will be alot more useful in the jazz band for jazz soloing. Buying an 8310 is not going to improve his range. Only practice will do that. If you could buy a double C then everyone would have one.

    He is still quite young and still developing physically... he probably is a ways from know what kind of playing he will gravitate towards. If goes into orchestra path then he won't get much use from a Shew 8310, but will want an Eb/D, C, and a good Bb/A Pic for sure. Those three horns at a pro level will cost $6000-7500 or more. At his age there is no telling what type of player he may become.

    If he goes towards jazz/commercial then he will become a improvisational soloist, or a lead player. Rarely are they both the same guy. Often enough a soloist can have some high chop but probably still not the lead player (at a pro level... in high school he may be the ONLY guy with high chops so he plays lead no matter what!) If he IS a soloist he will be able to play that 8335 for the next 4-6 years without any problems. An 8310 is going to be brighter, but he may not like the difference in the resistance and slotting. Matching a complementary mpc to the horn and playing style is another whole topic. A 1.5C and an 8310Z may be what works best.

    Either way... If $1000 doesn't kill your mortgage payment then go ahead and buy whatever you want. They will generally hold their value (unless you buy new). A $1000 8310 will still be worth that much in 1-2 years. Think of it as really being free... you buy it, use it for a while and then flip it and get your money back later. It is kind of like a CD at the bank. You are just parking your money in the brass futures commodity market... it is not gone forever.

    well, the answer here is that you start out on a middle of the road all purpose horn.. like your 8335, or a Bach 37. both will do anything pretty well. Scott Englebright played some kick butt lead on a plain old Bach Strad 37. You spend your energy at his age mastering technical fundamentals. Scales (all of them!) , Flexibilities, Tounging, Standard literature (both jazz, orchestral exercpts and trumpet concertos). You play the 8335 until your fundamental development is highly refined and then you have the ear and brain working well enough to tell a difference between one horn and another. That'll take a few more years, or maybe a lifetime!

    You can find a good servicable Flugel around $1000... maybe even a Yamaha Shew Flugel ! Two birds with one stone! LOL!
    Maybe a Yamaha 731, 631 would work as well for around $700. Even a used Kanstul 1525 is only about $1700 these days.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2012
  8. BrianCade

    BrianCade New Friend

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    The kindest thing I can tell is to save your money and buy him lessons. Save the glamor horns for after he's earned it.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    My take on C-Trumpets:

    most instruments are built with a specific market in mind (the horns need to sell to be worth building). The C-trumpet "market" is the orchestral, not the jazz band player. That means that breadth of sound, control of the point where the sound starts to sizzle and a tone quality that fits with strings are the "main" design parameters. To get there, the horns are somewhat "heavier" not lighter. Following that, big band charts are printed for Bb trumpet, that means learning new fingerings and struggling to get a section sound.

    For young adults, a C-trumpet can be a short cut to playing in church without learning transposition.

    What C-trumpet to buy depends on where it will be used, how often it will be used and how much money is available to throw at the problem. Almost all of the "cheaper" C-trumpets have intonation issues, so in any case I recommend a play before you pay strategy!

    The order in which we buy instruments depends on what is interesting to us. I had a cornet first,then a second cornet, then a Bach Bb trumpet, then a Selmer D/Eb-trumpet, then a Bach C- trumpet, then a picc, then a flugel, then a german Bb rotary valved horn, then a G-trumpet, then a natural trumpet, then my second natural trumpet then a new picc, then another Bb then a cornetto/zink and then I started to collect....

    It really depends on what type of playing that you do!
     
  10. Rapier

    Rapier Forte User

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    Rowuk, isn't the fingering the same for the C trumpet?
     

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