C Trumpet.

Discussion in 'Orchestra / Solo / Chamber Music' started by dbacon, Nov 16, 2003.

  1. dbacon

    dbacon Mezzo Piano User

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    Oct 24, 2003
    Scottsdale, AZ.
    When and why did the C trumpet take over from the Bb in orchestra's. Who was most responsible for this???


    Thanks

    Chris



    We have the French to thank for that. Georges Mager, Marcel LaFosse with Boston. Mager was a famous orchestral trumpet player (joining the Boston Symphony in 1918, LaFosse in 1926, Roger Voisin 1927) and had as one of his better students one Adolph Herseth. Bud studied with LaFosse and Mager at the New England Conservatory on the GI bill after WW II. Mager played in Boston for a good thirty years under Koussevitsky and Monteaux.
    These great players brought the French C with them, brought that wonderful sound to the Boston Symphony. Heim (1906-1920), Bach (1914-1915), Kloepfel (1898-1927), Shuebruk (1880's) were Bflat players.

    Vacchiano, then Herseth gave the C to the later part of the 20th Century. Mager and LaFosse and Voisin to the first half. Before Vacchiano and Herseth there were three big names in Orchestral Trumpet playing. Mager, Saul Caston and Harry Glantz. Caston a brilliant soloistic player, Glantz the solid first trumpet player.

    The C trumpet seems to be well entrenched in todays Orchestra.
     
  2. bnbtrpt

    bnbtrpt Pianissimo User

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    Nov 3, 2003
    Some great information here. Thanks a bunch. I have a question. Moderator feel free to move this to the appropriate forum if you see fit.

    Probably most of us can agree that anybody that uses a c trumpet in orchestra does so because they feel it is the right sound for the job. I sometimes get confused when I see an orchestral trumpet player play a Duke Ellington chart on their c trumpet. I cannot speak for Mr Ellington but I dont think he had the c trumpet in mind when he wrote a big band tune. Players in these big bands did not play c trumpet. Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman, Count basie. I see trumpet players in orchestras play "In the Mood" on a c trumpet. Now it becomes a matter of what one feels more comfortable playing not the right sound for the right job.

    Any thoughts on this.
     
  3. Anonymous

    Anonymous Forte User

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    Oct 21, 2003
    Interesting bnb. I think for some orchestral players the C trumpet for them becomes another man's Bb. By that I mean they use that instrument so much that he or she becomes very comfortable with it. For the majority of the trumpet players in this world I think the Bb is the most common instrument. But for orchestral players who day in and day out play C trumpet..... I think many of them feel more comfortable with that instrument then the Bb in some circumstances. Maybe they have other things on the concert they have to play on C trumpet and just like to stick with the same instrument. These are just some thoughts I would like to throw out.

    Question for bnb.

    Have you ever been at a concert where people are playing Ellington on C trumpets and the sound of it bothered you or just the look of it? I hear you loud and clear with your post. Just curious!

    In Peace,

    TM
     
  4. Tootsall

    Tootsall Fortissimo User

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    Oct 25, 2003
    Yee HAW!
    A thought. When an orchestra is playing Duke Ellington (or whatever), it is the ORCHESTRA that is playing it, not "THE TRUMPET PLAYER". Therefore the instruments have to be appropriate to the SOUND that the orchestra has evolved for itself. This would, in most cases, involve the use of a "C" trumpet, no? Now, if the trumpet player (or any other soloist) is playing "solo with orchestra", then they should be free to use whatever horn their little heart's desire.

    How about it, NE? It'd be good to hear your take on this one.
     
  5. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

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    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Hi,

    The C trpt sound , traditionally a smaller , more compact sound, has " morphed " thru the years into more of a
    Bb trumpet sound. This is a contribution mainly of the American Orchestras and Players.

    The French trumpet community still use the smaller bells and M bores like the original Bessons to get that traditional C sound , were the English Symphonic players still perfer the Bb tpt for a majorty of their symphonic playing and switch to C less frequently.

    Remember Maurice Andre and that beautiful " oratorio " sound he got on his Selmer Picc ( .415 bore ) compare that to the Big, Full Schilke picc. sound that is preffered today.

    I belive the Schilke Picc ( which is by far the " State of the Art " choise )is .450 bore and some companies offer .460 bore piccs. This is an attempt to get the sound to be ever bigger and rounder and getting a less tempermental scale, plus having more easier to play ie; more buyers


    Even in the quasi-legit movie soundtracks that are being recorded for the big blockbusters ie; John Williams types , the trumpet section of the recording orchestra prefer and perform mostly on C trpt. ( this was Bob Malone's primary clientele in the beginnig ) ever tweaking them to sound more B flatish yet desirering the control and ease of playing of a C trumpet

    I believe the great work done by Bob Malone was to answer a call to attempt to get C's to have the same temperment as a Bb thus making them somewhat easier to play. Don't get me wrong - I did not say they WERE easier to play.

    Also, you can see this development of Bach bells and bore sizes and how they have increased in size and " flair "thru the development of the line.

    I have a Mt. Vernon C trumpet that has a 236 bell and a .448 bore which was somewhat standard in the late 50's and I think we can all agree Mr. Bach was always on the cutting edge of what the trumpet community wanted. I also have a Mt V Eb/D with a 311 bell on it. This bell is what Bach uses on Picc. trumpets now.

    I actually had to put a Bach #7 pipe on it to get that more contemporary C sound.

    The Germans orchestras have been the only ones to tradidtionally embrace a very dark timre in all of their higher pitched instruments.

    My 2 cents

    Larry
     
  6. Anonymous

    Anonymous Forte User

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    Oct 21, 2003
    Interesting post Larry! I learned something there. So Bob Malone started his operation on the West Coast?

    As a side note on this topic I believe it was Charles Schlueter who helped develop the "S" pipe for Bach C trumpets. The "S" pipe is a full length Bb pipe on a C trumpet. The main slide is cut way down to accomidate this. (Better hope that organ isn't way flat on that church gig :) )

    I have tried one and didn't care for the sound of the Bb pipe on the C trumpet. Some people prefer the intonation!

    I have heard Bach calls this "S" pipe. the "Symphony" pipe and not the "Schlueter" pipe. Anyone have info on this. I was told by a reliable source Mr. S had alot to do with this but didn't get his name on it. Someone please clear this up if my info is way off!

    TM
     
  7. Larry Gianni

    Larry Gianni Piano User

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    Nov 11, 2003
    Los Angeles
    Hi all,

    The 25s pipe is the cut down Bb pipe and I only recommend this pipe for player that have to play a C trpt only “ Now and Again “ and want it to feel as much like a Bb as possible.

    The buzz about the 25s name change is because Shuelter is now with Monette so Bach , who really protects it’s name and image, wants no association between the 2. One well known Bach endorser, here in S. Cal had to have his Reeves mouthpiece, re-cut into a Bach blank by Reeves so when he does clinics and public apperences, the perception is that he plays a total Bach set-up.

    Bob Malone was out in Los Angeles for quite a while before his move to the Yamaha plant.
    He started with a brass re-pair shop in the Los Angeles area. He not only tweaked the Yamaha and Bach C’s but really started out tweaking the Bobby Shew Z’s for Bobby’s friends and students. Bobby Shew and Bob Malone are very good friends. Little by little, the legit community started to show up to get there stuff “ tweaked “ , guys like Boyde Hood and Tim Morrison.

    ON the Z’s, Bob would open up the leadpipe slightly and some other magic, then Bobby would come down and play them. By the end, most of the Z trumpets were ‘ Malonized “and played by Bobby and sent out to retailers.

    Bobby was the one who got Malone with Yamaha designing the Malone C for a standard Yamaha product. Bob Malone is also helping with a new tuba, copied from the one he made for Jim Self - #1 tuba call in LA recording.

    Hey, TM

    I posted on the Calicchio site my dilemma with a newly acquired Bach LB, C – tunable bell –
    Very early Elkhart – with a 238 (vinabonna) G bell.

    What leadpipe would you suggest for this trumpet? Would you go reversed?
    Would you cut down a Bb #6 to offset the big bell? Someone had put a Pilchuk on it now and I don’t like it. What Blackburn would someone recommend?

    Would anyone out there help me out on this one?

    Larry
     
  8. Anonymous

    Anonymous Forte User

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    Oct 21, 2003
    Thanks for clearing that up Larry. I really enjoy your posts.... everytime I read one I learn something new.

    I'll have to check out the site to learn more of your C trumpet situation but wowza it sounds like you have got quite a beast. :shock:

    A tunable bell Bach C trumpet.

    I'm not very familiar with the 238 bell

    I am a 229 25H man myself

    I have had my best luck with blackburn pipes on Pic trumpets. Played a couple on C trumpets and didn't care for em. Just my opinion.

    What kind of sound are you going for with this trumpet. What will you be using it for.

    For those who don't play much C trumpet I think the H pipe is sometimes a bit much to handle. Just from what people tell me. But I think it is gives the best sound. Have you thought about an A pipe?

    TM
     
  9. Lawler Bb

    Lawler Bb Piano User

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    Oct 25, 2003
    Milwaukee, WI
    Well, I don't know if I can offer much info on leadpipes other than that I enjoy my setup with my current Bach C. I do like the 'H' pipe as well, but it is larger than the 'R'. Charlie Melk of Melk Music in Milwaukee, WI told me that a 'R' pipe is almost identical to the 'H' pipe, except that the 'H' starts out a little bigger. I have also played an 'S' pipe for awhile on a previous Bach C of mine, but I changed it to a Blackburn. The intonation wasn't anything to brag about with my 'S' pipe. The Blackburn helped that for me, as well as making the response a little easier.

    Another thing to consider is to make sure that your receiver is soldered to your leadpipe properly. Charlie noticed that mine was crooked, and then after removing it, saw that the end of the leadpipe was not cut straight. I had him attach a new receiver and correct the leadpipe along with setting the gap according to my Laskey mouthpiece. It made a HUGE difference. Mr. Melk is a top-flight repair man; he does outstanding work.
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Forte User

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    Oct 21, 2003
    Does that Melk guy do those Pitch Finder things on Bach C trumpets?

    TM
     

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