Can lip buzzing and mouthpiece buzzing become harmful if used to much?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by mctrumpet, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    The point is, is it harmful? The answer is no. Lip/mpc buzzing is just another part of proper embouchure development. Is it the same as playing the horn? No! Only playing the horn is like playing the horn. Is the pencil exercise harmful? Are long tones? Pedal tones? The answer is that done correctly,no. They are all just facets of embouchure development. Here's a link that I find/found helpful.

    The Trumpet embouchure - how to buzz

    As an aside, the poster has been MIA since 2009!
     
  2. Phillydawg

    Phillydawg New Friend

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    Point is, the towel is NOT the same resistance as the horn and that fact throws off the air/tongue coordination. You'll get better endurance and chop strength results by playing with the mouthpiece in the horn. The idea of "varying" the resistance is even worse. Might as well warm up on a tuba mouthpiece.

    The pencil excersize doesn't build anything either except the ability to hold a pencil. Now I occasionally teach it to a student who is "smiling" or stretching their chops away from the center and needs to focus their chops towards the center of the cup. For it to build chop strength...no. One device I think that CAN help tho is the Warburton PETE. THIS has a bit more weight to it and you can do some good isometrics with it. STill....it doesn't replace practicing on the horn with the right proper airstream going through one's chops.

    To me, and again I refer to my earlier comments, I believe mp buzzing IS and can be very harmful especially because of the air column difference throwing off air/tongue coordination. Lip buzzing without anything not so much because a tight air column is not being established throwing off the tonge arch. Lip flapping is good too.
     
  3. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    Philly, we are going to have to just agree to disagree on mpc buzzing. I've logged a lot of miles in my truck just me, my mpc and Arturo and I am playing better now than at any other time of my life. Name any aspect of trumpet performance and it is better. Range,tone,endurance, tonguing, it's all better and improving. Your airstream logic to me translates to only playing one horn ever at the risk of harming something. I don't have a tuba (yet), but I can move to trombone or baritone and not miss a beat. I know those have different airstreams yet no harm is done.
     
  4. trptStudent

    trptStudent New Friend

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    Am I the only one who finds it strange that this thread, originally created in 2008, has been bumped up for discussion?
     
  5. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Correct the towel is not the same resistance, it is increased resistance. This builds and tones muscle. The point is we are talking about building muscle above the mean. This is very acceptable and a standard used muscle therapy. Athletes know this. Patients undergoing injury and stroke rehabilitation know this. Why would you think musicians could not grasp this concept? I believe we can.

    Thank goodness John Coltrane knew this. He played against resistance when practicing by placing a towel into his horn. His sound without it on recordings can be smooth or can excel into frenzy and a wall of sound. Are you suggesting John Coltrane was impaired? Was he injured?

    I don't think you can argue with results, or speak with authority until you try it. I am so sorry you do not understand or appreciate basic muscle physiology. As a practicing physician that works with musicians, my experience tells a different story.
     
    tobylou8 likes this.
  6. bumblebee

    bumblebee Fortissimo User

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    Some topics are timeless? I frequently find myself reading such threads not realising the original posting date and finding the responses as useful (or not) today as they were months or years ago. Also, with new members coming to the forum in the meantime there may well be new points of view or experiences which are worth hearing about.

    --bumblebee
     
  7. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    I remember reading an article several years ago about a trumpet player who had his own band. Back in those days, most traveling was by bus. Between gigs this guy would annoy the crap out of the band. They got so tired of all the "weird" noises he would make with his lips and mouthpiece while traveling, they made him sit in the back of his bus. This same guy would also do the same thing in hotels and restaurants. The guys told him it was really obnoxious. He explained he was exercising his chops to stay in shape when he wasn't able to play. Who was this player you say? None other than Bill Chase (doesn't seem to have harmed his playing)! For him and for me, it is about developing total control of the muscles that make up your embouchure. If you cannot control your embouchure, you cannot control your sound. I don't care if anybody else lip buzz'z, it's a personal choice, I will. If it's good enough and worked for Bill Chase, it'll work for Tobylou.:play:
     
  8. BrotherBACH

    BrotherBACH Piano User

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    This is an easy one to resolve. I once asked Pops McLaughlin what he thought of the Bud Brisbois mouthpiece exercise wherein you hold the opposite end with your lips while bent over facing the ground. It really burns the corners. I loved it.

    He stated that it was inappropriate for beginners or early comeback players to do such an intense exercise. We basically do not have the strength or experience, so all it does an early stage make the chop stiff and inflexible. He continued to say don't do what the professionals do, do what they "did" to become professionals.

    Coltrane was a professional who knew what he was doing. He had already perfected his coordination and knew how to maintain it, so he knew how to apply resistance to get the exact training effect he wanted. Such a strategy would be disastrous for anyone else not nearly his level because the additional resistance does alter coordination and would be counterproductive for anyone still low on the learning curve.

    The same thing applies to any other "unique" training method used by pros.

    BrotherBACH
     
  9. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    I totally agree when it comes to extreme exercises used by the pro's. However, I do not see lip/mpc buzzing as extreme exercises. To me, they are the most basic things a player can do from day one. It is the foundation on which the "house" is built. I have read where some brass academies don't let the players touch a horn for 2 weeks until they grasp the concept of your lips produce the sound, the horn is simply the amplifier. All they do is lip exercises and theory those 2 weeks. I have said in earlier posts this is an overlooked part of trumpet pedagogy.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2011
  10. BrotherBACH

    BrotherBACH Piano User

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    Very true. I have read that in several method books I own. I was referring to the resistance thing in the earlier posts. I also agree that lip buzzing can be a very good thing, especially for learning how to focus your air, but also refer back to the D.H.L Clarke quote I posted.

    BrotherBACH
     

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