Can't put valve back in after oiling

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by hhsTrumpet, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. trumpetsplus

    trumpetsplus Fortissimo User

    Jun 11, 2006
    South Salem, NY
    Not sure why you wrote this.:huh:

    Musicalmason suggests not to.
  2. amzi

    amzi Forte User

    Feb 18, 2010
    Northern California
    Best Instrument Repair in Oakland.
  3. Newell Post

    Newell Post Piano User

    Mar 31, 2014
    Silicon Valley
    Hornucopia in San Carlos. They're excellent.
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    I teach all of my students also to regularly remove the valves, clean them and then completely dry them before oiling. Especially petroleum based oils evaporate leaving moisture, paraffin and aerosols from our breath on the valve and casing. We end up oiling the sludge and NOTHING protects the valve. The valve and casing can be easily swabbed before reoiling, getting a large portion of the contaminants away from the valve!

    I think that we all agree that there is no real possibility to remotely diagnose the problem.

    Stuff like this I have not seen on the 3rd valve. The second valve, yes with the exposed slide and minimal bracing.

    I think that we still have dirt in the tubes leading to the casing. I would give the horn a COMPLETE bath and a good snaking before doing anything else.
  5. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

    Oct 26, 2003
    It really shouldn't matter as long as you are being careful. When I can, I remove the valves completely and douse them down with valve oil, but otherwise, there's nothing wrong with pulling the piston halfway out, applying oil and putting it back in.

    Once again, we've come to a very simple task that we are overthinking, and losing sight of why we're doing it in the first place. Why is it that we continually get caught up in the process and forget about what it is were' trying to accomplish?

    It's pretty simple really - we need to refresh the thin barrier of lubricant between the piston and the valve casing - that's all. The only advantage you have by removing the valve is that you can completely douse off any gunk or solid particles that may be clinging to the piston, thus not reintroducing them to the horn, but if the horn is fairly clean, adding oil to a partially removed piston accomplishes the same task.
  6. musicalmason

    musicalmason Forte User

    Dec 14, 2003
    Nobody is required to follow any advice I write. Everybody is welcome to add me to their ignore list if you choose. That said, my valve oiling advice is mainly given to students. Very few students are playing monette horns, and very few professionals are looking for advice on how to oil a valve. The reason I give that advice to students is because it lowers the risk of damaging a valve by dropping or spinning it in the casing. So, my advice is not without reason, thought or experience.

    It is also my understanding that monette valves contain living, rare earth properties that need sunlight once a week to function properly.
  7. A.N.A. Mendez

    A.N.A. Mendez Utimate User

    Oct 25, 2005
    Sunny Ca.
    Welcome to Instant Rimshot
  8. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

    Dec 22, 2008
    Take it to Dave. You'll have it back in a couple years! Or use a hammer after
    complete removal. Or, or, or, just maybe you can use google for a dealer near you.
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    This is only the case when those living organisms are not regularly removed............. ;-)

    Last time I looked (yesterday), my Prana was a dead hunk of metal with all of the earthly particles removed and it hadn't seen the light of day for about 3 weeks (been playing natural trumpet....).

    MM, I don't think that anyone really disagrees with anything or anybody here. HHS has a Yamaha Xeno and can't figure out why a valve that worked before oiling doesn't go back in now. There are only 2 possibilities: contaminants or damage. The first possibility requires removal as does the second. As far as general practice goes, we have all squirted oil in the bottom valve cap and pulled the valve out half way to oil on top of whatever was left on the valve/casing. I am reasonably sure that neither destroyed the instrument.

    That being said, the Ultra Pure guy used to post here occasionally and presented some really interesting info. It was something to the effect that valve oil based on petroleum is made up of various ingredients like mineral oil, paraffin and some other stuff. The mineral oil is reported to evaporate in between 17 and 24 hours leaving the sludge from our moist breath and the nonvolatile ingredients in the horn. This means that after 24 hours, we have no more "oil", rather only moisture that does a pretty crappy job protecting the valve. The Ultra Pure motivation was to sell synthetic oil that did not "evaporate" while providing a "service" designed to help prevent wear and keep the valves moving slickly.

    I think often that the function of valve oil is reduced to "preventing the valves from sticking". It is often ignored that when metals rub against one another that they wear. Any collector of vintage trumpets knows how badly worn valves can be. Only when the oil bonds to the surface of the metal is it protected. An additional factor is that valve oil does bind contaminants. All of these factors support the notion that cleanliness is next to godliness. I teach my students how to bathe and snake their instruments, clean the valves completely and everything else that keeps the instrument clean and functional.

    For the record: Dave Monette advocates the direct bond between oil and the metal and the complete removal of moisture and contaminants whenever possible. He is proud of the manufacturing tolerances and always comments positively when performing service on a well maintained horn. You CAN see the difference when the lapping marks are not smoothed off from metal/metal contact.
  10. hhsTrumpet

    hhsTrumpet Piano User

    Dec 3, 2011
    Update about my trumpet. I took it to a repair shop last week. The technician suspected it was a bent valve. I got a call from him today and no good news. He said he'll look into replacing the whole valve after consulting Yamaha.

Share This Page