Can't put valve back in after oiling

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by hhsTrumpet, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. Shifty

    Shifty Pianissimo User

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    It was probably an eyeopener because it isn't (at least universally) true. A good read on evaporation rates can be found in a research paper by David Holloway at:

    http://www.trumpetguild.org/journal/s95/9509Holl.pdf
     
  2. A.N.A. Mendez

    A.N.A. Mendez Utimate User

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    Sunny Ca.
    Quote Originally Posted by rowuk View Post
    It was an eyeopener for me to learn that petroleum based oils have no more "oil" after a day or so. It has evaporated. All the more reason to get the kids onto synthetic oils that lasts at least a week before getting "sludged up"
    It was probably an eyeopener because it isn't (at least universally) true. A good read on evaporation rates can be found in a research paper by David Holloway at:

    http://www.trumpetguild.org/journal/s95/9509Holl.pdf

    [​IMG]


    This is getting better...


    Oh, are you awake now?
     
  3. A.N.A. Mendez

    A.N.A. Mendez Utimate User

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    Rough out there.... Rough!

    [​IMG]
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I am familiar with the report. Exactly what I said. All of the petroleum based oils had less than "enough" lubrication in 24 hours or less. Enough in the report was 40%. The synthetics lasted much longer.

    What survived longest?
    Alisyn
    Space filler I II
    Pro Oil Hybrid
    Slide

    Then came oil that lasted max 2 days
    Pro Oil BLUE and RED
    one that I can't decipher

    All of the rest was under 40% after a day Including the standard brands that most students get (because they are cheap).


    My point is, the kids are not going to be oiling like the pros. They can really use the extra measure of protection. Once we have reached the age where we do the things that we should, we can afford to pick an oil on "feel" instead of longevity.

    A valve not sticking is still no sign that it is healthy. Aerosols from our breath do collect in the horn and cause other problems.
     
  5. Shifty

    Shifty Pianissimo User

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    I'm pretty sure that the one you couldn't decipher is Al Cass. Solid line, hollow diamond.
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I used Al Cass oil exclusively on my Bach trumpets that I had in music school and the Army. They are the only instruments that needed new valves after 5 years. It was fast, but didn't last for more than a day or so.
     
  7. hhsTrumpet

    hhsTrumpet Piano User

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    California
    I picked up my trumpet. The tech replaced the 3rd valve with a new one. It works great. Feels good to have it back again.
     
  8. motteatoj

    motteatoj Mezzo Forte User

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    Tuckahoe, NY
    I want to share some experiences in this area, they may or may not be relevant to the OP's case, but are interesting none the less.

    I have found two different, oddball things that have led to such a sticky valve condition, both are rather interesting (to me at least).

    1. Bottom Cap tightness on older, lighter horns. A slight overtightness on a bottom cap on a horn that has rather thin casings near the bottom will slightly compress the casing, enough to make the valve stick. This happened on my Selmer on valve #1 (the most used one, of course) AFTER getting the valves redone by Andersons. Now that the clearance in the valves is super tight again, the problem has shown itself. A slight, and i mean very slight loosening corrected the problem. But then I swapped the caps on #1 and #2 (they are numbered to match the casings) and it made the problem all but vanish. My thinking is the #1 bottom cap is slightly out of round, enough to 'pinch' the casing on #1, which is apparently thin.

    2. Closet sleepers and de-gunking. Although these sleeper horns look great cosmetically, as they sit in a dark, warm, ever changing humidity enviornment, gunk deposits from the moisture due to temperature and humidity changes. Even after a chem clean and multiple home cleanings, valve oil can continue to release tiny bits of gunk over time, which will gum up the valves. Eventually this will go away (weeks, months, even years), and a LOT of patience is needed. Tuck Tellier turned me on to this condition after some chatting, and it explains some issues I have with another horn I am noodling with.

    Hope this helps some folks
     
  9. Ed Kennedy

    Ed Kennedy Forte User

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    Nov 18, 2006
    One way to check if a valve is bent - roll over a piece of plate glass or, better yet, a machinists' stone. If bent you'll find a high spot where it rocks. They can usually be straightened and lapped a bit but Yamaha student valves are pretty inexpensive so replacement was probably the right call.
     
  10. strad116055

    strad116055 Pianissimo User

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    May 27, 2014
    chicago
    i'll throw a couple of things in here that haven't been mentioned...not to disagree with anyone. mr. schilke recommended oiling the valves by putting oil into the receiver and blowing air through the horn until the excess comes out the bell, moving the valves as you did so. his thinking was that you were protecting the leadpipe from corrosion this way, and a frequent rinse would keep your horn clean because the dirt didn't stick. he also cautioned never to rotate the valves in their casings because the tolerance of the valves on his horns was so tight. i play a couple of old (40 and 50 years) bachs every day for about 2 hours and put oil in the leadpipe every day. i seldom (maybe once a week) have to take my valves out to oil them unless i've been off the horn a couple of days. the valves on these horns never stick.

    i had a valve freeze up a few years ago (different horn) and was told by the repairman that the 3rd slide had been bent ever so slightly. it wasn't visible looking at the horn, but apparently it was enough to cause a small dimple on the inside of the valve casing. it was an easy fix.

    one more thing i have heard: if you change valve oil, depending on what you've been using and what you're going to, some caution is advised. certain synthetic lubricants cannot be mixed with petroleum based products you have to get all the old oil off the valves before you use the new one.
     

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