Dark sound from a shallow mouthpice or high tone from a deep mouthpiece, Matter?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by SmoothOperator, Nov 15, 2011.

  1. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    See the contradiction here? It has just about everything to do with the depth. Sure, the diameter, backbore and throat contribute some to the total sound, but deep cup = dark (rich) sound just like 2+2=4.
     
  2. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Dale no contradictrion. Claudio, Jarome, myself there in the same room. Callet stock piece with pre-sellected cup rim and depth by Jarome himself. Hand the mouthpiece to Jarome, lathe backbore... Play... tinny... lathe backbore... Play... opening lathe backbore... Play sound filling horn... lathe backbore... Play... full sound dark rich!! Jarome did not touch the cup. I watched it. Do you see the evidence here? It has miniimal to do with the depth, and most to do with the bore. That was the whole theme behind my lesson that day with Claudio.

    Claudio had just purchased a trumpet for $75 at a street sale. We both agreed when he handed it to me to play, that it sounded like a $75 trumpet. He then changed the mouthpiece and the horn sang. He said he had just returned from Jarome Callet's loft where he opened up the back bore to match the lead pipe of the horn. He then took me to Jarome's after that lesson to match a similar sound with my horn.

    Are you telling me Claudio and Jarome are wrong? We all three heard the difference. You were not there Dale. Do you see he contradiction here?

    It IS ALL about the back bore. I believe my consultants over any individual that was not in that studio while I personally watched the piece being adjusted.
     
  3. Dale Proctor

    Dale Proctor Utimate User

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    Not saying you're wrong, but you started out with a deep cup. Try the same on a really shallow cup and see what happens. Nice name dropping, BTW...:D
     
  4. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    No name dropping, Claudio was my teacher for 18 months while I lived in NYC, and he was truly a teacher in every sense of the term. He really worked to develop my sound today, and equipment instruction and experimentation was a big part of our working together.

    When I discovered my Schilke, I had it lined up with several brands of shallow cupped mouthpieces, including the Al Hirt Jettone. All felt shallow, but the Schilke played the brightest. Then I changed Schilke's 13,14,15,16 A's. They all had the same brightness, it's just that the 14A was most comfortable. I am truly convinced the backbore is the answer. My Olds Recording to this day rings best with any cup sized Schilke, but the Callet fills the horn with the darkest, richest full tone.
     
  5. nieuwguyski

    nieuwguyski Forte User

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    Your name-dropping would be more impressive if you spelled Jerome Callet's first name right. Your Callet mouthpiece may very well have initially not had an optimal balance between rim, cup, throat, and backbore... for you and your trumpet. It sounds like Mr. Callet correctly diagnosed the problem and fixed it, which is no surprise, given his reputation. But you are (once again) drawing universal conclusions from a personal experience.

    If the backbore were the answer for a dark sound, there would be scads of orchestral players playing shallow mouthpieces with huge backbores. And we'd be playing Schilke A cups on our flugelhorns, mated to huge backbores. And British brass band players would be playing Schilke 14A4e's. Vast numbers of trumpet players have hard-won experience telling them that cup-depth matters, and that if they want a dark sound at all dynamic levels a deep cup, with a backbore to balance it, is the way to go.

    If the backbore is truly the answer why aren't you playing a Schilke 14A4, or even a 14A4e?
     
  6. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    I am sorry you are finding this so difficult to understand. The above comment is not true as it broadly generalizes. The backbore is the answer for many types of sounds an it depends on the bore of the lead pipe to which it is being attached. If the wave form is out of sync between the two bores, the sound will be dampened, but if optimized, it will be oppened. This could lead to a lively brassy sound or an open full dark sound.

    Because the Schilke 14A4 was not comfortable at the other end for my lip structure. This end can also impact on the sound quality if it does not allow for optimal buzzing, but that was not the situation for me comparing the 14A4 with the 14A4a. It was purely a comfort choice.

    I do believe I am not alone with my "personal" perspective. This is the perspective that was given to me by Mr. Callet, by Mr. Roditi, and it is what I am reading into the comments posted by Turtlejimmy, SmoothOperator and others in this thread and in others [many others] concerning mouthpiece opinion. So while my comments are from personal experience (this is true) my personal experience involves input from some fairly influencial individuals.

    AND YOU ARE ALSO CORRECT SIR: My spelling sucks!
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2011
  7. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Dr. Dave... I am calling for a Dr. Dave consult. Dr. Dave, any input into this discussion, as it would truly be helpful coming from the perspective of another individule that designs and builds mouthpieces.
     
  8. SmoothOperator

    SmoothOperator Mezzo Forte User

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    I get what you are saying. In this example there was some other aspect of the mouthpiece which did influence the sound(other than depth). This argument would come out on the side of the mouthpiece does effect tone and range. However, I believe you could still play high notes and dark tones on any of your mouthpieces.

    Now if I can just figure out how to measure the lead pipe and back bores of my horns and mouthpieces.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't believe a word of this. I think that we just have a great deal of inconsistency in SOs playing. I would suggest not trying to reinvent the wheel.


    Even if you could come up with a measuring system for leadpipes, what would you learn from it? The same applies to the backbore. Any of those parameters only make sense in the context of the entire horn. Moving braces fractions of an inch cause very great differences - that can be measured in inches, but doesn't say anything out of context either.

    My experience is that weak players with "dark" sounds are not heard in band playing and weak players with "bright" sounds are annoying. A big BEAUTIFUL sound is a function of breath support and competent practice not the hardware.
     
  10. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    And the truth will set you free. Thanks Rowuk. This is a spiritual concept!
     

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