Deep freezing brass instrument

Discussion in 'Trumpet Repair and Modification' started by chet fan, May 11, 2010.

  1. chet fan

    chet fan Piano User

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  2. Brekelefuw

    Brekelefuw Fortissimo User

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    I think opinion is split 50-50. I haven't done any testing myself, but I know someone who did a great deal of testing and sings the process' praises. I won't give a real opinion until I go through the process myself...if I ever do.
     
  3. trumpetup

    trumpetup Piano User

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    I've heard and read that the cryogenics treatment allows a trumpet to self correct the molecular changes it went through during construction. The bending, stretching, and heating at solder joints will cause the basic elements to move. It would be similar to resoldering bracing to remove stress. As far as will it improve the playability I think it would be similar to getting a precision valve alignment. It a trumpet doesn't need a PVA getting one will not make it play better. If a trumpet isn't under undue stress removing undo stress will not help.
    This is only my opinion. Brekelfuw is wise to not comment on what he is not sure about.
    Good Luck,
    Bobby
     
  4. gzent

    gzent Fortissimo User

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  5. richtom

    richtom Forte User

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    From Ralph Jones's resource site.
    Play Test Results of the 2000 Cryo Experiment
    What cryogenics is supposed to do is release tension which has occured in the horn during construction.
    Time accomplishes the same thing, but it takes years.
    Rich T.
     
  6. guyclark

    guyclark Piano User

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    I hesitate to get involved again in this religious argument, but I guess I will anyway. :-P

    Look, cooling things off slows down virtually ALL reactions in the chemical world. Get things cold enough, and even atomic motion stops. Thus, you're not going to change the crystalline structure of a metal any faster by making it cold. If it takes years at room temperature, it'll take millenia at cryogenic temperatures. (that's why we anneal metal at HIGH temperatures!)

    Back in the mid 1990s (Summer of 1997, I believe) I was involved in a study conducted on the TPIN by Wayne Tannabe late of the Brass Bow, a pro-shop in the Chicago area. Wayne had the equipment for the cryogenic treatments, and this was part of his business. He and I were pretty friendly, but had this disagreement. He finally challenged me :evil: to a blind study (not double blind, as HE knew what was going on) and offered to do the process on one of my horns for free, if I would evaluate how my horn played. I agreed, readily!:thumbsup:

    So, early in the summer, he took one of my horns (my Yamaha rotary Bb trumpet, YTR-935) for a week. He gave it back to me to try for a couple of weeks. Then he took it back for another week, and gave it back to me again. I think we went through one more cycle before I had to decide when I thought he'd done the test.

    I thought about it and told him (and everyone on the TPIN at the time) that the horn played the best after the second week he had it. Coincidentally, that was when he actually did the cleaning and freezing process on the horn. :shock:

    Proof of concept? Well, maybe, but the funny thing was that ALL my horns played better after the second week. At the same time, I was preparing for an Illinois Brass Band appearance at the Usher's Ferry Grand Celebration of Brass Bands near Cedar Rapids IA. I was preparing a solo, and wanted to do it right! It is MY contention that any improvement in the Guy/trumpet system was actually in the Guy component! :-P

    If anyone is really interested in reading about it, I think that the TPIN archives exist somewhere, and could be accessed. I'm pretty sure that this all took place between May/June and July/August 1997. Look for my name, and that of Wayne Tannabe/Brass Bow and Cryogenics.

    IMHO, the deep cleaning that is part of the process is a good thing. I really think that the cryogenic part is pseudo-science and wishful thinking on the part of the players.:evil:

    Later!

    Guy Clark
     
  7. richtom

    richtom Forte User

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    I never actually believed freezing worked any magic either.
    Rich T.
     
  8. chet fan

    chet fan Piano User

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    so it basically means; the older the horn - the better (excluding valves for obvious reasons)


    on the other hand if colling is irrelative, hat about placebo effect. Afterall trumpet playing is all about self confidence and beleiveing, if you beleive frozen tpt will play better, it will. IMO
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2010
  9. guyclark

    guyclark Piano User

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    Sure! The older trumpet playing better than the new one makes as much scientific sense as the cryogenic effect! :roll:

    I think you hit the nail on the head: It's all about cleaning and the placebo effect. The same thing happens when we buy a new horn. At first, it's like magic! Then as reality sets in, we find it's often no better than the old ones we had. :dontknow:

    Spouses are like that too, sometimes; hence the "honeymoon period" Good thing Laura and I are still on our honeymoon, ten years later! :thumbsup:

    Guy
     
  10. veery715

    veery715 Utimate User

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    If I were you, Brek, I'd get my horn done instead.

    v
     

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