Directing the air stream

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by wnaus, Dec 29, 2008.

  1. Miyot

    Miyot Pianissimo User

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    Jul 22, 2007
    I just can't believe this works at all. If you are on your 4th hr. of playing, it is not due to directing the airstream. I have had many new break throughs. None of them worked. If this is the breakthrough you have been waiting on, more power to you. I seem to have to work hard for minor improvments and have never found the holy grail. I really wish I could.
     
  2. Hoghorn

    Hoghorn Pianissimo User

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    No Holy Grail here Miyot.......just another small piece the puzzle for me. I really don't think there is a holy grail to be found, but it would be nice wouldn't it !!
    I try to learn something new every day about the horn, and I've never found anything in my life that taught me daily like the trumpet, it is a humbling instrument for me.....
    and I'm hooked, just like you !! Some things work, and some things don't, but I don't know if it will work until I try it, guess I was lucky today !!

    I hope you are also !!

    PS, Miyot, my gigs are all 4 hrs minimum of pretty high energy stuff, and I play quite often, so I have to put this kind of time "Choping wood" in the basement to maintain the endurance for the shows !!


    Hoghorn
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2009
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Wayne,
    you are right, talk is cheap. Your lack of application of basic anatomy and physics requires no counterargument though.

    Look at any cross section of the human face and you will see that the tongue and teeth do not allow directing the air at the aperature anyway. A further hinderance is the difference in mass of the upper and lower lip. That too will redirect the air in ways not easily calculated.

    I prefer a certain amount of internet anonimity and do not use the forum to get students or gigs. My posts are based 100% on my personal experience (including master classes with some of the players that you mention) and over 30 years of teaching. I did study at a major US music school but most of what I know came later. I have a strong background in things technical and that helps me keep the geometry of playing fairly well sorted out. I do not post on things that I have no experience with.

    The myths still seem to hang on. I draw attention to that, not to trash the results of any particular player, rather to point them at the real reason why they are successful. I do not question your results, your reasoning is just not physically possible. Questioning my background does not reinforce your theory. I would be more than happy to help you analyse your success and zero in on the real reasons why they work.

    Once more:
    The air travels through the vocal chords, pass the tonsils, make a 120 degree bend at the roof of the mouth, are partially guided by the back of the tongue which is relatively high in the oral chamber (at least compared to the position of the aperature). Depending on where we tongue (most people on the top teeth) the air is further guided to the teeth. Players with a natural over- or underbite have the the air redirected one more time before it hits the lips (which by the way are pressed against the teeth not necessarily "centered" on the space between the teeth). The air is redirected one further time based on the pressure applied to the upper or lower lips and their mass. With the extreme amount of "turbulence" in the human breathing apparatus, and the interaction with the mouthpiece/horn, the air direction is per se insignificant. The aperature is not round or linear in behaviour so the air stream is also not symmetrical.

    Angling the mouthpiece or moving the jaw forward changed the complete playing geometry and THAT causes a big difference. The direction of the air can be your visualisation. It just is not a valid reason. Moving air is fluid dynamics not a pool ball that can be bounced off the side rails. The turbulence and pressure in the mouthpiece make any attempt at pointing air at the throat negligible.

    In this open internet forum, my advice is offered as is. I choose not to ignore anatomy and physics when making claims. There are many more details than I have described here that further reinforce my stand.

    Good luck!

    Robin
     
  4. Hoghorn

    Hoghorn Pianissimo User

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    I like the alternating current drivel better.....NOT.....Well I got a BUNCH of playing in yesterday, anyone else ??


    Hoghorn
     
  5. wnaus

    wnaus Pianissimo User

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    Dec 4, 2008
    Robin,thanks for your thoughtful response. I guess the bottom line is whatever works best for you or whatever you think works best hopefully will work. One thing is for sure, trumpet is a beast of an instrument that is worth while pursuing in my opinion with all its pain and pleasure. Best of luck to you.
    WN
     
  6. BobList

    BobList New Friend

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    Nov 10, 2003
    Baltimore, Md.
    Yes, I think this is considered a way of thinking, vs. what actually happens inside the mouthpiece. Wayne, have you ever observed your airstream using a clear mouthpiece ( Reinhardt, Kelly) to verify this description?.. Jus' wondering...
    Bob
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Wayne,
    the trumpet is a beast and ANY serious thoughts about taming it are a help to the cause.

    I am not sure that any of us (even the finest chop teachers) can be sure of "what is best". Life is too short and major transitions too problematic. I am sure that you have continually and sensibly tweaked your playing to get where you are today. Other players can benefit from your experience by not having to reinvent the wheel. Thanks for posting!

    Robin
     
  8. wnaus

    wnaus Pianissimo User

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    Dec 4, 2008
    yes in fact I have a visualizer that shows the lips when buzzing. It is interesting to observe the lips and the pivot variations while air is flowing through the lips. Some people say the lips don't actually touch as the air passes through them. I'm not sure about that.
    WN
     
  9. BobList

    BobList New Friend

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    I mean the actual airstream direction.....a few times in these posts, you describe it as a "feel"....and yes, that can work wonders...I was SURE that I was blowing straight into the cup, and even upstream at one time...a plexiglass mp, and Charlie Garrett confirmed I was blowing as downstream as downstream can get...but I "felt" as if I was blowing upwards...he told me go with whatever works as far as what you may "feel" is. But don't experiment if it's working....

    Bob
     
  10. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The lips open and close like a valve. Weak chops will not close as efficiently and can "leak" air, reducing efficiency, endurance and sound quality. This is why "tight" corners and proper lip/mouthpiece geometry are vital.

    Check this out:
    Welcome at the pages of the IWK (Institute of Musical Acoustics)

    click on research, then on the right: lip vibrations - an overview

    This research has been performed by a team really in the know.
     

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