Do I have the right chops for trumpet?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by nchsbandrocks10, Sep 21, 2010.

  1. nchsbandrocks10

    nchsbandrocks10 New Friend

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    So I just tell them the number of whatever I find?
     
  2. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    Yea, it says number 1 instead of the web address, don't know why. I would go there and bookmark it so you can refer back to John's site often. He is a world class mouthpiece maker/designer.Regards.
     
  3. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    Basically yes, John will give you a range based on you lips makeup.
     
  4. Moshe Mizrachi

    Moshe Mizrachi Pianissimo User

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    Feb 17, 2010

    Size of mouthpiece that a player needs is completely unrelated to lip size.

    I have thin lips, but I play Double High C's on a big diameter Bach 1.25C-sized mouthpiece.

    High note player Cat Anderson had much bigger lips that I have, yet he played what is probably the world's smallest diameter mouthpiece.
    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=XIyZTMuuMISglAeW_YXvDw&ved=0CB0Q9QEwAg

    Instead, the mouthpiece diameter needs to match the dental formation behind the lips, because it is the dental formation behind the lips which serves as the foundation upon which the mouthpiece rests.

    A downstream player often anchors his mouthpiece on the upper lip where the upper teeth meet the gum behind the lips, a natural indentation that the mouthpiece rim can rest in.
    The player then needs a mouthpiece diameter that will allow the right amount of lower lip into the mouthpiece cup.

    An upstream player often anchors his mouthpiece on the lower lip where the lower teeth meet the gums behind the lips, a natural indentation that the mouthpiece rim can rest in.
    The player then needs a mouthpiece diameter that will allow the right amount of upper lip into the mouthpiece cup.
    (That is why switching to a slightly larger mouthpiece diameter actually helped my upper range, because it allowed my upper lip to protrude into the cup a little bit more comfortably.)

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I think something very big is being missed here. In fact something that is very often missed when talking to trumpet players.

    Looking at your post, you have been playing for a while, obviously are not studying trumpet and have stopped taking lessons. With your present situation, you have made a very logical attempt to size things up. I'll paraphrase what I think is behind this:
    "I really love the trumpet, but even now, when I am in a good playing situation, my playing isn't good enough for what I would really like to be doing. I realize that to make any real progress, it would be a major effort without a guaranteed result. Would I be able to achieve more success with a low brass instrument".

    My answer is that the range on a trumpet does NOT move linearly to another instrument. If breathing is one of your major issues, you could have even less success. If your problem is embouchure, things would probably get better.

    I have never had a student who practiced a reasonable amount that didn't have at least a high C within a year. That did not make them "first" or "solo" material however. For those positions we need an attitude next to our playing abilities.

    My opinion is that you should find a good (new)teacher for a handful of lessons. Give it one more shot. I think that your playing can improve by at least a 5th without a new embouchure or hardware.

    Good luck
     
  6. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    And you have a very well developed embouchure, he doesn't.
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    On the internet, we know NOTHING about "anonymous players" and their tone, range or musical qualities. Most posts here can be taken for what they are: anonymous suggestions what MAY work or what some would like to work.

    Never make the assumption because someone claims a double C that the statement means anything at all. Even if they can, that does not mean that their method works for anyone else.
     
  8. Moshe Mizrachi

    Moshe Mizrachi Pianissimo User

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    That has nothing to do with it.

    The point is that if I use a Bach 7 diameter I will suddenly lose half an octave of range because that diameter is too small.

    If I use a Bach 1 diameter I will suddenly lose half an octave of range because that diameter is too big.

    The Bach 1.25 diameter fits my embouchure the same way that a particlar size of shoe fits your foot.

    According to the page at Stork, high note expert Cat Anderson had huge lips and he should have required a huge mouthpiece diameter.
    Instead, Cat Anderson played Triple High C's on the world's smallest mouthpiece diameter because it fit the dental formation behind his embouchure.
    http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...&sa=X&ei=2aGZTPyeOcHflgfft8Bw&ved=0CB0Q9QEwAg

    And according to Stork, I have thin lips so I should be using a smaller diameter mouthpiece.
    But I spent many years trying to play those smaller mouthpiece diameters and never did have any success with them.

    Every player has a different size of foot that is determined by the bony stucture of the foot, so every player needs a certain size shoe to fit that foot.
    Going either smaller or larger will be the wrong shoe size for that individual.
    Stork has the general theory right, except that Stork erroneously thinks that it is lip thickness which determines the mouthpiece diameter which is needed, when it is really the dental structure behind the lips which determine the size needed.
    Because the dental structure is rigid, while the lips are completely malleable "shape-shifters" that ride on top of the dental structure.

    According to erroneous conventional wisdom,
    "If Moshe can play Double High C's on a Bach 1.25 diameter,
    then he would be able to play Quadruple High C's if he used a
    smaller diameter that better matched his thin lips!"
    That is incorrect.
    If I try to use a smaller diameter, then I lose range, no matter
    how much time I give my embouchure to adjust to the smaller diameter,
    because the smaller diameter does not fit my dental structure behind the lips correctly.

    By the way, my embouchure is very weak, just like all the other muscles in my very old senior citizen body.
    I can play Double High C's anyway because playing Double High C's requires proper technique with only minimal strength.
    But having great endurance in the upper register would require an extremely strong embouchure, and I do not have such endurance, so I must rest my weak, old embouchure very frequently.

    Final note:
    Although I might disagree with fellow trumpet players about various teachings,
    I still respect and love those fellow trumpet players,
    just as I hope that they still love and respect me in spite of our disagreeing about various teachings.
    Friends can disagree and still be friends :thumbsup:

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2010
  9. Moshe Mizrachi

    Moshe Mizrachi Pianissimo User

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    Does your statement above also apply to the advice that you give to people here in Trumpet Master?
    Do you recommend that people doubt your accomplishments and knowlege and advice?

    What I have been saying in my posts here is not a "method".

    What I have been saying in my posts is accumulated facts from many professional players who agree with each other, facts that I agree with because my personal experience proved to me that those professionals were indeed right when they taught those things.

    When I recommend using minimum mouthpiece pressure to develop the upper register, for instance, I point out that people like Bill Chase, Tom Turner, and Bob Odneal also recommend minimum mouthpiece pressure for developing the upper register. Even Maynard Ferguson warned against using much mouthpiece pressure.
    Because 99 percent of trumpet players agree that it is wrong to mash the lips with much mouthpiece pressure to get the high notes.

    Same thing when I post about the need to know whether you have an upstream or a downstream embouchure.
    Not only does my personal experience state such, but that is also the experience of professionals such as Andrea Tofanelli, whose experience with that subject has been posted here in TM by another member.
    If you don't know whether you have an upstream embouchure or a downstream embouchure, then following just one piece of misguided advice from a teacher can virtually destroy your ability to play trumpet.

    And the idea of developing the upper register by playing very softly at first is common sense that is taught by people such as Bob Odneal.
    You shouldn't try to blast your very highest note because your lips are already doing all they can just to play that highest note at all, and blasting the note will just cause the over-taxed embouchure to collapse.

    So what I have been posting is not controversial "method".

    It is accumulated common sense from professionals who know what they are talking about.

    .
     
  10. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    I agree that friends can disagree and still be friends. John has been in business a long time independently and before that, head mpc guy for Giardinelli. If there wasn't credence to what he says, I doubt he would still be in business (although trumpeters are more likely to buy snake oil than other players ;-)). A mature embouchure can change and adapt more readily to mpc size than an immature one IMO. I am not up to CC yet, but I don't now lose significant range if I do switch mpc's. I use what I use because it is the most efficient choice. As far as Cat goes, not everyone appreciates his sound at that high range. I've sat in with some old school big band guys and he (Cat) came up and most called him a high note squeaker. I spoke up and the lead guy showed me how Cat did it by demoing himself. It was amazing. HE said Cat used that tiny mpc to hold it all together and most guys could do it with practice. HE also said, notice what mpc he uses for "normal" playing,not the squeaker (his term,not mine). Anyway, if the poster practices consistently He will see marked improvement. Regards.
     

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