Double tongue and other capabilities

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by 11thchair, Feb 7, 2012.

  1. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    I am looking forward to your post. We could use some success stories based on solid first hand information. If you have questions feel free to ask or PM.
  2. 11thchair

    11thchair Pianissimo User

    Jan 27, 2005
    Evansville In
    An update:

    Well, I'm still not sure what up-streaming is - but I believe I have figured out what has happened to me.

    The basic real change is that I have un-choked my throat. By attempting up-streaming (no idea again if I have done this) I have improved my posture and opened up my throat. Then the double-tonguing "suddenly" worked.

    This seems to really allow me to support the sound and I guess the range improvement.

    I'm thinking this also explains why I wear out when sight reading. I tend to get closer to the music (my vision is not that great - getting old you know) and the trumpet goes below the stand - pinching the throat down so the air cannot do the work.

    Figured this out when I had to avoid the horn for about 10 days. Picked it up again and old habits took over. Took a couple hours to realize what I was doing. The correction got instant results.
  3. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

    Jul 1, 2011
    I found the last part of your post more interesting. The double tonguing does improve over time even if you don't practice it all that much. It seems more a knack than a consciously learned discipline at times.

    "Upstream" ought best be described as "forward jaw" trumpet playing. If that is what you are doing. The first teacher to use the term "upstream" Donald Reinhardt however he described it as playing with more lower lip on the mouthpiece. This was a HUGE error of his and he ought to have known better.

    Reinhardt also subscribed to the tongue arch for range theory so obviously his system was flawed. Even though he claimed his approach was "scientific". Not all that much of it was. Just by mentioning this we can almost bet that the resident Reinhardt groupies will be all over my rear end...

    So we're stuck with the "Upstream" term and its ambiguous definition(s).

    If however you are pushing your jaw out to get higher notes? Then this might be an acceptable way for you to play the instrument if ease of upper register is your main goal. Then again maybe not.

    However many receded jaw cats are fine lead players. There often are problems with receded jaw to forward jaw conversions. Such as

    1. Inability to play musically and with ease in the lower to middle register.
    This by itself may make the system useless.

    2. Difficulty with articulation.

    3. Lack of volume in the upper register despite the ability to squeal miles higher than your peers.

    4. Just takes too much time away from your musical chop setting to make the damn thing work

    I have a young student who can actually play some decent high notes in practice when he pushes his jaw forward. And yet he sounds more musical with his jaw left in its natural position. He's a toss up case. I don't know how well he will work it out. My guess is that he's not motivated enough to really put in the hours to pull it off.
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2012
  4. photosnapper

    photosnapper New Friend

    Jun 26, 2010
    I'm always telling people that you don't need an instrument to learn double and triple tongueing. I use to drive my parents mad as a teenager going around 'singing' (t.t.k).t - in order to learn triple tongueing which, incidentally, I learnt before double tongueing. When you become proficient in this you do multiples like (t.t.k) t.t.k)t and so on. When you have mastered this it's not too difficult to do this with a mouthpiece on your lips and concentrate on transfering the airflow by using this system. It's not treally difficult. I was called 'rattlesnake tongue' during my time as principal cornet of a major army band.
  5. 11thchair

    11thchair Pianissimo User

    Jan 27, 2005
    Evansville In
    In response to Local 357

    My jaw is out farther than it used to be, but it does not change as I go up and down my range. I would say that my upper and lower teeth line up (normally I have a slight overbite).

    I find my upper lip is more relaxed than before.

    My articulation is much improved. Endurance is quite a bit longer - but when it gives out it is like falling off a cliff. I cannot sustain the jaw position - then nothing works. This takes about 2 hours.

    I'm not trying to squeal so I can't really address that. I have a piece for band that goes to F# above the staff that sounds stronger than I can play an octave lower. We will never actually play it, but it's fun to play it (Bill Chase song). But that is about as high as I try and play - can't use it much anyway. When I started my experiment I jumped up to a B.

    Now as far as musical chops setting... dunno. I think I am doing better. Wife has even complimented me after a practice.

    Retirement is approaching and it's nice to have something to enjoy doing .... and experimenting.

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