Double/triple tongue

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Warren, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. Warren

    Warren Pianissimo User

    66
    1
    Nov 19, 2007
    South Africa
    Hi all

    Got myself a copy of Arban's book recently and have been in awe of his genius. I do find that I really really need to learn to double and triple tongue effectively before I can tackle some of the exercises.

    I've never practiced double/triple tongueing before, and did some research. So to start off with I've been setting my metronome at a slow pace 70 bpm and double tongueing on tu-ku or du-ku, whichever feels better. I do this for 5 minutes within my practice session. 5 times a week. Do you think I'm doing the right thing?

    I know everbody follows a different practice routine and not everything suits everyone, but am I more or less on the right track? Should I be doing it for longer periods of time? I'm starting on a slow pace and then maybe every second week I'll increase the tempo.

    I do find that on the "ku" syllable I tend to cut off the air stream a lot of the time. Is this just something I need to practice till I "hit the spot"?

    Any advice or exercise on tongueing please?
     
  2. derekkress

    derekkress Pianissimo User

    172
    0
    Oct 8, 2007
    Montreal Qc Canada
    I like this book 240 double and triple tonguing exercises by Victor D. Salvo. They are short exercises and cover all the basics! Plus the forward gives a good explanation on how to practice and stresses recording yourself and working with a teacher . Good luck!
     
  3. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

    1,951
    1
    Oct 25, 2007
    California
    I find that TU KU tends to make you want to close up inside of your mouth a little, where as TA KA keeps you open. You are definatly doing the right thing, but what you might want to start doing is the exercises inside the book. Start at the tempo that it starts you off at, and play them until you can get them very clean. Then speed up the tempo 2 beats, and repeat. once you start getting faster, you might want to only speed it up by 1 beat, but do what works for you.
     
  4. Pedal C

    Pedal C Mezzo Forte User

    989
    2
    Jan 24, 2005
    Here's the way I've practiced multiple tonguing. It's worked very well for me.

    1 - Really slow. Long notes (ToooooooKuuuuuuuuToooooooKuuuuuuu etc.)and try to make the T and K sound the same.

    2 - Whatever speed you sound the best at. Faster than above, but don't push it.

    3 - As fast as you can, even though it probably sounds pretty rough. Don't spend an inordinate amount of time on this part, but don't be afraid to push the limits of what you can do.

    Do each speed every day. I think it's good to push the limits (slow and fast) as well as keeping track of the speed you can do it best.

    Good Luck.

    Jason.
     
  5. mrmusicnotes

    mrmusicnotes Piano User

    307
    3
    Nov 11, 2007
    N.Y.C.
    When i play my scales up and down,in thirds,patterns,I always double tounge them.It like killing two birds with one stone.Tape yourself to make sure your keeping it crisp and even.Don,t forget that your clarke studies are meant to also be double tounged.Good Luck Don
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,616
    7,962
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    Patric,
    this shows that you are doing something wrong. TAKA is definitely more "closed" than TUKU (the tongue is higher which blocks air and makes your sound smaller - I also think that TAKA uses a broader tongue which would slow you down too!.

    Warren, you are experiencing the same thing as every other trumpet player on the planet with the KU cutting the air off. The beginnings of multiple tonguing always involves more muscle than brain. The key is to get the TU and KU pronounced as lightly as possible. TU and KU are the correct syllables in the beginning, maybe better pronounced as tuku. You can practice this also effectively without the horn!
     
  7. Miyot

    Miyot Pianissimo User

    170
    1
    Jul 22, 2007
    I like to pronounce Tee-Kee. Especially in the upper register. And I think the correct pronunciation in the lower register is actually Tew Kew. My Arban must be a late one. It explains this on page 7 in foot note 13
     
  8. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

    1,951
    1
    Oct 25, 2007
    California
    I'm sorry but It certaintly DOES NOT give me a smaller sound. When you sing, to get a nice open sound, you use a taa or daa sound. Not a Tuu sound, The tuu sound restricts your airflow. Try it. Sing a nice solid Tuu pitch.... and then open up to an aaa syllabel. I play how I would sing, and Taa seems alot more reasonable. and no, my tounge is not slow.
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Age:
    61
    16,616
    7,962
    Jun 18, 2006
    Germany
    Patric,
    this is plain BS. I do sing (tenor and counter tenor with a couple of respectable ensembles).

    If you do not believe me, check Manny Laureano's posts on Tooh. I know that you are working on a DIY embouchure change. After a year, you will be may be able to judge what worked for you. IF you start teaching some time in the future, then you will maybe be able to put some of the pieces together after a couple of years of experience.

    Singing and playing are two different animals. Why? Your oral cavity is BEHIND the motor (lips) when playing trumpet but in front of the vocal chords when singing. That means the resonance has to occur in your oral cavity when singing and professional singers OPEN that cavity up - not with AH, but with OH or OOH. With the trumpet, the oral cavity has a different purpose. It is behind the motor (the lips) and acts like a buffer to balance the backpressure from the horn and mouthpiece. An AAH only serves to make the oral cavity smaller, and this is will not help! This is my argument against the DIY approach. No control over things that you do not understand or have figured out yet, regardless of importance!

    Tongueing is most efficient when done with smallest possible movement of the tongue. The tongue needs to ride on the air. The t and k are the focus not the OO or AH. You should not need to bend your tone to accomodate articulation. Scheherezade should be as playable as a Bach Christmas Oratorio.
     
  10. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

    1,951
    1
    Oct 25, 2007
    California

    OO and AH are the overall sounds that your horn is making, If you were just playing t k, thats all you would hear. attacks. You can in fact have legato double touning, as well as stacatto double tounging. I prefer to have my throught wide and open to allow as much warm air as I can. You can get a much wider throught with the Taa or Daa Syllabal than you can with the tee or kee syllable.

    I have decided not to continue with the embouchure change by the way.
     

Share This Page