Dumb newbie questions about horns

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Ai_Dygress, Apr 16, 2005.

  1. Ai_Dygress

    Ai_Dygress Pianissimo User

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    I apologize for the lameness of this post, and was not going to bother posting in Manny's area since there are many more important questions for his attentions.

    I am kind of confused about the fine tuning that people are referring to about their horns. Such as, adjusting the bottom valve caps.. and the like.

    Can anyone put this into newbie english for me?

    Thanks

    Chris
     
  2. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Ai,

    The first maker to make bottom vave caps a variable was Dave Monette. I can still remember the phone call when he figured it out. I don't know how it relates to horns that are made by other makers, however. It was pretty specific to the balance that made his horns unique at the time.

    First it was the weight of the valve caps and then he came to understand that the tightness of each cap contributed to creating a similar tension between each casing.

    Still with me?

    What he figured out had to do with the amount of mass on each valve that came from the amount of tubing that each valve had and how the combined weights affected the response of the horn. The 2nd valve has considerably less combined weight than the 3rd does. See why? 3rd valve and slide are less mass than the 2nd, right? In order to equalize the tension between the two you have to change the tightness of the bottom valve cap. The 1st is right between the other two.

    When I tried that with conventional horns I found the results weren't at all the same. In fact, I just decided that all it did was make them more unstable. It's a "whole- horn" concept you could say.

    So, the bottom line is that with Monette horns, people who buy them (or the cynic might say "buy into them") learn to manipulate the caps in a pre-prescribed way that changes slightly depending how tight you feel on a given day. For other brand horns I don't know what one would do because I have no experience trying that in recent years.


    ML
     
  3. Ai_Dygress

    Ai_Dygress Pianissimo User

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    So essentially its a balancing act through out the valves? Creating a 1:1:1 ratio that will allow the air/sound flow through properly without having the weighting of the valves interrupting? :shock:

    I think I get that? So its only on Monettes then. That was one of the things I was confused on. My apologies. :oops:

    Thanks again for taking the time to explain. I appreciate it.

    Chris
     
  4. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Well, I don't know what other manufacturers are doing so I can't make a blanket statement. I can only say that Dave was, at the very least, the first to make this correlation but it fits in with what I have always understood his philosophy about building horns: equality of design concept throuhgout the instrument.

    This is why you can't buy his stuff and mess with it and have work optimally. That goes for the mouthpieces, too. If you take a drill to it, will it play? Yup, but not in the most optimal way.

    Here's a story:

    I know a profesional, well known, in fact, who got one of Dave's horns and was fairly happy with it. One day, he dented the bell significantly and it played "better". Well, what that tells me is this was a good player who plays a bit tight but still plays well anyway. Denting the horn made it less of a Monette concept and more of a conventional horn concept. This fit "better" with his physical setup. I just kept my mouth shut.

    ML
     
  5. Jimi Michiel

    Jimi Michiel Forte User

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    Wow, interesting story... so you're telling me that the next time I'm feeling a little tight, I should just take a crow bar to my C997? :-o
    In response to the original topic, I find that, along with making sure that the caps are at the right tension, it is also essential that the O-rings are not worn out. There have been so many times when I have been having what seems to be an off day. Then I just pop in a new set of O-rings and everything magically opens up. I know it sounds completely nuts (many people have told me this :D ), but it really works. Maybe it's some kind of psychological thing...
    -Jimi
     
  6. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Jimi,

    I've found the same thing. If the rings are worn, they won't provide the sort of conduit from the cap to the valve that is, say it with me, optimal. I think it's a question of sensitivity whether natural or learned. It's gotten to the point where if I don't like the quality of a pitch or sound I sit up straight automatically. So there you are... if I sat up straight it's because I was slumping a bit to begin with and it affected the tone or the pitch.

    I received the DVD of the stuff from Portland I did with Dave Bamonte, the second player there. I hope that when it's up you guys enjoy it. It's going to be tough deciding what stays and what goes. The bottom line is that I hope that some body use stuff clicks as a result of hooking together the aural and the visual.

    ML
     
  7. Jimi Michiel

    Jimi Michiel Forte User

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    You should release an outtakes/bloopers DVD... The clips Dave Monette doesn't want you to see!!!! :lol:
     
  8. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Forget Dave... Im the one who doesn't want you to see them! There are some pretty funny things on there, actually. Maybe I'll release them when I'm dead. Good luck getting me to sign the forms, though.

    ML
     
  9. camelbrass

    camelbrass Mezzo Forte User

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    Or maybe when you retire Manny. When is that again?

    Regards,

    Trevor
     
  10. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

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    Trevor,

    Y'know... in all seriousness, I think I'd love to go 66 because it would be 40 years in my seat and I like round numbers. I'm hoping that my health is good because I know it won't be the case that I won't love it. It would be like not loving my children... impossible! So, that leaves health and capability. G-d has been good to me so far and I hope I continue to serve whatever purpose I presently am to His approval.

    All of which means I'd better get my butt into the practice room and work!

    ML
     

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