Embouchure types.

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by RobertSlotte, Sep 12, 2008.

  1. RobertSlotte

    RobertSlotte Pianissimo User

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    Finland
    I noticed that there are now 9319 members of this forum. That is cool, hope more will join us and write questions or ideas on stuff. When I check in on the TM forum there is really not so often new subjects, ofcourse I understand that most of the forum members just read what others wrote and do not write anything on their own and thats ok also.
    With this in mind I think from time to time that I myself have to start a discussion.
    First of al I have to confess that I am VERY interested in how the embouchure works and interested in different types of embouchures. I also understand that there are a lot of trumpetplayers, maby 80-90% that just practise a lot and are SUPER and do not think about what kind of embouchure they use. Thats cool also!!

    So now to my subject "embouchuretypes".

    First of all here is a good link that explain different types of embouchures:

    Rune's trumpet page, EMBOUCHURE

    Now, I know that most of the forum members here maby do not know or are jst NOT interested in what I am about to ask and i respect that so you guys just do not comment on this ok?

    But fore the ones of you (there most be some one out of the 9.319 members here) that are interested in this and have knowledge about it:

    What trumpet star uses waht embouchure type?

    Fore example I heard that Arturo uses Maggio. Is this correct?

    And what about the rest? Tofanelli, Wynton, Hardenberger, Maynard, Bergeron, and so on??

    RObert
     
  2. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

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    Wayne Bergeron gave a lecture at ITG and said he uses Maggio.
    He is in California and I think it is better known in California as a method. I am pretty sure it is taught elsewhere but is not called Maggio. It is just taught and not much emphasis given to what it is called. Some roll in and some roll out. That is just the way it is.

    The web site you posted is well known.

    Most popular subjects on this site get rehashed every year. rehashed - OneLook Dictionary Search
     
  3. screamingmorris

    screamingmorris Mezzo Forte User

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    Apr 4, 2007
    Some trumpet players do not realize that they play with certain embouchure types.
    They play with those embouchure types without realizing it.
    Other players are fully conscious of their own embouchure types.

    Nevertheless, go to
    An Introduction to Donald S. Reinhardt's Pivot System

    Scroll halfway down the very long Web page to the heading "Reinhardt's Embouchure Types".

    Quoted from that Web page:

    "Dave Steinmeyer, Conrad Gozzo, Tommy Dorsey, and Reinhardt himself are good examples of Type III brass players."

    "Joseph Alessi, Lyn Biviano, Arturo Sandoval, and Bill Watrous are some examples of Type IIIA embouchures."

    "Examples of Type IIIB brass players include Chuck Findley, Rafael Mendez, and Lyn Nicholson."

    "Good examples of Type IV brass players include Wynton Marsalis, Jon Faddis, Doc Severinsen, and Dick Nash."

    "Kai Winding, who studied directly from Reinhardt, was a good example of a Type IVA embouchure, as well as Buddy Childers."

    - Morris
     
  4. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Piano User

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    Mar 4, 2005
    In Reinhardt forums experts say over and over again that it is impossible to properly type an embouchure without observation with a transparent mouthpiece and even then classification can be dicey. Given this, how can we give this list any credence?
     
  5. screamingmorris

    screamingmorris Mezzo Forte User

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    1. Reinhardt knew many of the people personally, had typed them in personal meetings .

    2. It is possible to come to a 95 percent certainty about a person's embouchure type without using a transparent mouthpiece if enough videotape of the person's playing is available.
    For example, Reinhardt *had* met Maynard Ferguson in person.
    But even if he hadn't, Maynard's mouthpiece placement and trumpet tilt are so obvious in a multitude of videotapes that there is no way Maynard's down-stream embouchure could be mistaken for a Type 4 upstream.

    3. If you do not want to give credence to a list compiled by Reinhardt himself,
    if you would rather follow some snake oil salesman than look at the scientific approach of Reinhardt,
    then I couldn't care less.

    - Morris
     
  6. Tammerman175

    Tammerman175 New Friend

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    Oct 19, 2007
    I believe maynard used the stevens embouchure, but I'm not sure about that. I know that both arturo and wayne berguron use the maggio system, that's a definite. Arturo's method book is basically the maggio system, except kind of concentrated, if that makes any sense.
    Don't know what the others use though...
     
  7. screamingmorris

    screamingmorris Mezzo Forte User

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    In the early 1970's Maynard Ferguson offered Donald Reinhardt a blank check for Reinhardt to teach Maynard's son correct trumpet embouchure and technique.
    Reinhardt showed us the blank check and told us the story when he was visiting Kansas City in the early 1970's.

    Again, Reinhardt did not invent an embouchure.
    Reinhardt simply analyzed the embouchures of hundreds of players who were already successful and then catalogued the different embouchure types that the successful players were already using.

    - Morris
     
  8. trumpetnick

    trumpetnick Fortissimo User

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    Nov 16, 2005
    Vidin, Bulgaria
    Morris,

    I do understand that there is people with different embouchures type, but I do not understand why make such a big deal of it. Most students don't even need to know what type of embouchure thay have. The "M" placement of the embouchure we talked before most of the time help them get what is right for them. The "rare" embouchure types some time may need instruction about tongue placement, as it is different depending on the facial structure. Most students I have seen get it naturally (without having to explain them all the embouchure type deal) unless they are trying to immitate trumpeter X with embouchure different than theirs (this may be Wynton Marsalis, Maynard Ferguson or the 1st chair trumpet in their school band). Most of the time, as embouchure placement and tilts are concerned, most brass teachers try to do the following:
    "Froelich's study confirms that as a brass player reaches the later stages of development that the amount of pivot does indeed become reduced, often to the point of imperceptibility. The eventual goal of the pivot is to develop the appropriate lip pucker. When this stage is reached by a Pivot System student the pivot is typically quite unnoticeable to the eye.

    Generally speaking the pivot is only employed for intervals of a perfect fourth or larger. Over-pivoting and under-pivoting, particularly over-pivoting in the low register, can be quite detrimental to the performer, and the brass player needs to be ever conscious of letting the core of the sound determine the amount to pivot."

    Reinhardt was a great teacher and researcher, no doubt. None of my teachers ever taught me about Reinhardt types, though all of them are great players and some of them are quite insightful as teachers. Why? Because they did not estimate it necessary. All of them prefered to concentrate on minimazing the tilts and maximising the efficiency of the tongue placement, the use of the facial muscles and correct breathing...By the way, I am type IIIB downstream player.

    However, explaining and analyzing emboushure types in some rather rare cases may be very important. When I was a beginner (my first teacher was the rigid type, one embouchure for all - he was military educate trumpeter - don't wanna offence any military guys, but at the communism time in Bulgaria military guys, even musicians were quite rigid) there was a bloke who was probably type I or II upstream. He had huge problem. They tried for months, but finally the instructor told him to take up a clarinet instead. Probably he would benefit a more flexible approach and precise embouchure typing - unfortunately the instructor was absolutely unaware of any other embouchure types. Since then, I have encountered only once this embouchure type. And the second one was a truly great trumpeter.
     
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  9. RobertSlotte

    RobertSlotte Pianissimo User

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    Jul 7, 2008
    Finland
    Really do not know why I find it so interesting but I do. Probably couse I have had so many emb. problems before and "gone through" most of the ways one can produse a sound with the lips before I found out what works for me. ( I am a type 4)

    Rob.
     
  10. Jerry Freedman

    Jerry Freedman Piano User

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    Mar 4, 2005
    Fine, May you and your fairy tale taxonomy find happiness
     

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