Endurance

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by jazz9, Jan 3, 2008.

  1. eisprl

    eisprl Mezzo Piano User

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    Just remember, when you are doing sit-ups, someone else is practicing.

    I say the best remedy for endurance is to play, play, play. When I find my endurance failing, I go to the Arban and play a bunch of the little phrasing melodies starting on page 191. I try and see how many I can play in a row (beautifully!) Once my tone gets rough I stop and rest and go back to them later. The Clarke studies are very good as well as well as the Concone etudes.
     
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  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Amen.
    It is important to keep yourself in shape but there is no correlation between running/swimming and playing. We may see something that looks intensely physical when we watch lead trumpet players or Maynard Ferguson. Believe me, there is less going on than you imagine. When you watch serious classical players, they seem to perform effortlessly. Believe me, there is more going on than meets the eye!
    Turning trumpet playing into hard work is juvenile. There is no technical reason to turn your body into a powerhouse. I (I am actually not alone) post every other week about a big relaxed breath not abs, lungs or any other muscular events. There is a reason for that and no, I am not fat.
    Play smart not juvenile and your endurance will increase. The many posts and speculations from players that have not been there only confuse the issue.
     
  3. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

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    Yes, i never said that it had to be extremely physical to play trumpet, but if you have the diaphram power to push out the air, and the chops to old the appeture, they it will look easy. (or you could make it look hard if that was your style.)

    Jazz, as for how the soft low note playing works, it actually makes perfect since. When you play high, what is the correct technique for your chops? Its a small, solid appeture. getting more air through that hole faster will enable you to play a little higher, and definatly louder, but only if the appeture doesn't shrink.
    When you play soft and low, you have to practice with very little air to play that softly (almost in- audible) You are always practicing with that small solid appeture that you use to play high, so if you can play softly with amazing control, no doubt it will help your upper octave playing.

    Now I'm not saying that once you play soft you will be able to play anything up the octave. You will still have to practice it, but its just the mentality that you dont have to force out the high notes, they should be as easy as playing low.
     
  4. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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    [​IMG]

     
  5. Master Trumpetissimo

    Master Trumpetissimo New Friend

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    "Originally Posted by Patric_Bernard [​IMG]
    but if you have the diaphram power to push out the air, and the chops to old the appeture, they it will look easy. (or you could make it look hard if that was your style.)"



    Ummmm, correction. Modern medicine has proved time and time again that the diaphragm does NOT push air out, but is only active in breathing air in.

    Just sayin...:cool:
     
  6. stchasking

    stchasking Forte User

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    I was wondering when the diaphragm connotation would come up.
    This point is well taken. I have yet to find the diaphragm when viscerating deer. I think it is thin connective tissue.

    I am glad we all have opinions on the use of abdominals. I know Maynard used them even though they were somewhat concealed in the later part of his life. If any of you have collected his 1950's and 60's albums you know that he tapered off as he got older.

    Bill Chase used his abs and some web sites say he lifted weights regularly to stay in top physical condition.
     
  7. tatakata

    tatakata Mezzo Forte User

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    ok :-?

     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Patric,
    I am convinced that you do not really know what is going on here. You talk about diaphragm power, fast air and louder if the aperature doesn't shrink - this is NOT how it works. The same goes for your take on playing softly.
    The physical side of playing trumpet is much more than a cut and paste of ideas from many different web sites and maybe E'mail. You need to take another look at the human body before you post things like this!

    A deep relaxed breath is just that. There is no additional DIAPHRAGM POWER. If we are talking about playing lead trumpet, there is perhaps a consideration when we use a breathing technique called the wedge. Here we leverage our BODY to help increase pressure. This is technique is not universal, although used successfully by players such as Erik Veldkamp. Diaphragm exercizes can help increase the air that we take in, not increase the force with which we expel air!

    The same goes for a concept of fast air. The speed of your air CANNOT be controlled by the diaphragm. It is indirectly controlled by the tongue, lips and back pressure from the horn. I use a comparison of your thumb over a garden hose. By partially closing off the hose, I can get the water to spray farther by decreasing the "aperature" and thus raising the pressure. I do not need to think about the speed of the water in this case and I do not need to increase the power of the diaphragm (water pump).

    You obviously read somewhere about playing softly being beneficial. If you have ever looked at body building you see 2 methods: a few repetitions of very heavy weights or TONS of repetitions with much lighter weights. We see the results when we look at weight lifters or marathon runners. IF we choose to use soft playing as a tool to build endurance, we have to play softly until we wear our chops out. This of course is not practical for most players as the time required is excessive and is not the only way to get a controlled aperature. We need a routine with various exercizes to speed the process up. Arban, Clarke, St. Jacome, Schlossberg, Claude Gordon, the folks at Rubank and COUNTLESS others offer intelligent, comprehensive programs to build chops instead of an incomplete cut and paste of semi-related ideas.

    Playing loudly has ONLY to do with the amplification properties of the horn and the distances our lips travel. The oscillating air at the mouthpiece is amplified by the horn. The greater distance the lips "flap", the louder the sound. The amplification of the horn is consistent until we reach a certain sound pressure where distortion takes over and makes our sound only more obnoxious. This has NOTHING to do with APERATURE. The more controlled aperature decreases the amount of air that escapes in the oscillation process, letting us play longer. In addition, a more controlled aperature will let us play higher by decreasing the vibrating area through muscle strength.

    Endurance is built by developing a routine that supplements our playing skill, takes our non-trumpet schedule into consideration, and most of all dedication and preserverence. It makes no sense to prescribe a 3 hour practice routine for someone that has only 30 - 45 minutes per day and that after an intense working day!

    I am convinced that most of the DIY players that are successful are just plain LUCKY. They are either naturally relaxed, have natural playing skills or other physical qualities that get them to a relatively high level of playing quality. The rest of us, get there with the help of someone that knows better. There is no substitute for a real teacher. You can't put a realistic picture of what it takes to play solely over the internet. You can limit your own progress, and confuse those around you by believing and posting everything that you read without someone knowledgable to put it into context.

    Regardless, if we are far enough along so that trumpet playing is FUN, and that is deemed "good enough", then don't let us try to turn you into the unhappy player in search of the holy grail through mouthpiece and trumpet safaris, embouchure changes..........................
     
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  9. oj

    oj Pianissimo User

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    How do you control the diaphragm, Patric?
    (Hint - it is not possible)

    The diaphragm is a sheet of muscle extending across the bottom of the ribcage.

    The phrenic nerve is made up of motor nerve fibres for producing contractions of the diaphragm.

    Motor nerves carry signal from brain. Carries signals only one way!

    Ole
     
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  10. Patric_Bernard

    Patric_Bernard Forte User

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    Rowuk, if you are so worried about what people are learning from the internet in blogs, forums, emails and such, why do you seem to be the know it all kind of guy and bash on other people when they use a wrong term. When SOME people think of diaphram related to trumpet player, they think there abs. I'm sure if you asked 10 random trumpet players what they used there diaphram for, at least 5 would say to push air out of my lungs.

    In reality the diaphram is used to push down on your intestines and whatever else is located under it, so that your lungs can extend and you can take in more air, i know that.

    As for the soft playing, Nick Drozdoff expains it on his site. You dont have to do it until you blow your chops. When wait training, you are eaither going for leaner muscles or bigger bulkier ones. Leaner muscles you do maybe 2 or three Really big sets. like 2 sets of 50 push ups. But for bulkier muscles you would do maybe 5 sets of 10 pushups with more weight restraints of whatever you may use.

    You also seem to miss the fact that I was only explaining upper register playing. You used the relation to a water hose. You put your finger over the end, and the water stream all of the sudden gains pressure. Ok, fine, small appeture, faster air. Now with that same water hose, Open the faucet all the way and you'll notice it becomes extreamly harder to keep your finger over the hose. The force of the water pushed the air away. Now, of course water cannot be compressed, and air can. The wedge method works very well for compressing the air inside of your lungs before it reaches your lips.

    Now i know i dont know all the Terms as well as you do rowuk, and I know i havn't been around playing the trumpet as long as you rowuk, and I know i'm probably not as good as you rowuk, and I also know that you have had many many teachers while I have had none rowuk, But I do know how to play. I am definatly not musically retarded as you all may think. Maybe I just happen to be dyslexic like my father is, and his father is, and dont explain stuff well. So before being ignorant and knowing everything I know off of a few posts, dont call me a LUCKY DIY Player.
     

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