Experience gap acoustics and airflow

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by [email protected], May 15, 2014.

  1. Sethoflagos

    Sethoflagos Utimate User

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    I'm sorry, but this goes beyond smoke and mirrors. If this is supposed to be a refutation of my previous posting, then out of respect for your standing in this community, I'm out of this discussion.
     
  2. Dean_0

    Dean_0 Piano User

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    Just for fun ,or maybe just to stoke the flames ?:D Mostly because I find this very interesting ;
    From a un-educated,non professional, wanna-be ,,, perspective ;

    Is it possible that the area at the end of the mouthpiece is very sensitive ? what i'm thinking here is about m/p's that fit loose at the end ,or if they seat at the top of the taper before seating at the very end of the taper? would that affect the things we are talking about ?

    Thinking that the sound/air isn't going to do anything but travel down the backbore governed by the taper of the backbore until it gets to the end, then it could have a place to backlash or pile up if the transition is to harsh.

    Also thinking about the paper/tape trick Decoupling the m/p from the rest of the horn ,could it be that when that is done the emboucher is not getting feedback through the mouthpiece when we play, on some unknown level ?

    I have M/p'S that are very thin at the end and a few that are pretty thick ,it could be changing things too?

    I have tried zero gap ,well as close as i can get to zero ,i didn't like it ,what seems best for me is about .025 ,but iv'e even had as much as .050.

    Anyway ,Great topic !!!

    Dean_0
     
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Nope, wasn't supposed to refute anything. Just info from Schilke that lead to his "stepped leadpipe". He showed us how he came to the conclusion. He also showed us how the venting worked on rotary trumpets for the high C key. I haven't seen any "evidence" to convince me otherwise, although I can't claim to have read everything on the matter ever written. If you have stuff, I am definitely interested in at least considering it.
     
  4. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

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    How about a test with one plastic and one brass mp?

    This should tell us something about mass coupling . . .


    Too many other factors?
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Been there, done that. The real problem there is that the mouthpieces are not the "same size" and at least so different as to dwarf the difference in gap. I had my C trumpet modified to test with, without and with different braces to isolate, mass couple - up to forged braces to really couple. They ended up being my favorite.

    This brings me to an important point: GAP can be anything to an individual player - including placebo. Too few really know the difference and therefore are very easily manipulated. We all want to be able to pimp our blow and as long as the horn was not acoustically measured before and after, we will never know for sure.

    Accurate measurements are possible: Library - Technical Papers - Downloads. Richard Smith has this part of construction really down to a "science". Check out his papers.
     
  6. gzent

    gzent Fortissimo User

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    It could be more evidential than a placebo if you had someone help you and not tell you which way the gap was set.
     
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I suspect the best data would come from a resonance test like Richard Smith invented or using the BIAS program written at the Institut Wiener Klang from my other link. Once we know what changes, we can correlate those differences to what good players report.
     
  8. gzent

    gzent Fortissimo User

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    Maybe, depending on how accurate the test simulates and represents a real, typical player.
     
  9. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

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    I didn't even realize that gap was a factor until I was in a friend's studio one night checking some things out - he does custom mouthpiece work - and he asked if he could check the gap on my current setup. His thought that it was too big and asked if he could turn down the shank on my mouthpiece on his lathe, with the warning that he could take metal off, but he couldn't put it back on. I said something to the effect that he was the expert, I trusted his judgment, and to go ahead.

    The difference in my setup was immediate, and it was big. Everything improved - focus, intonation, accuracy, response, range, endurance - the only "downside," if you could really call it that, was that in the immediate aftermath of the adjustment, I would overshoot notes in my upper register. I became a believer where gap was concerned right then, (sometime around 1997) and have always kept it in mind since then. As a side note, my friend will also be the first to say that the gap is a bigger deal on some horns than it is on others - apparently Bach Strads are greatly affected by it, but other horns (I want to say his Conn Connstellation was one) are barely affected by it, if at all.
     
  10. gzent

    gzent Fortissimo User

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    It was like that for me too, although I didn't change my mouthpiece, I used a shim.
     

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