F. Perez have Question for you about valves???

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    No 212 WPM is the fasted with out error's if you substract all the words I mess up my speed then droped down massively. When I talk about how fast I type I am talking with error's which is not the way offical typeing speed is calculated. I just had to type this slow as can be to try and avoid any massive error's. Normaly when I type I can type as fast I think for the most part wich is reall fast. Another thing is that when typeing for offical speed rateing you are typeing from a sheet so you are copieing I do not copy at that speed I have to slow down to read and type especialy when it is nonsense sentences on the test page. I only type at the speed I mentioned when I am typeing my own thoughts.

    I think college when I had to take keyboarding class I was in the 35-75 word a minute area. Basicly if it was a test page I had seen before I could nock it out really fast. If it wasa new test page with new sentences that I had not seen then I was done to 35WPM. Back then I was also useing a MicroSoft Natural keyboard. My son spilt tea on that one so now I am useing a dreadfull stock Acer Aspire keyword which is rough due to my insanely wide shoulder's.

    I type constantly though.. I type at work, I type at home I use a note book for note's when I was in school or when attending a meeting or anything!!! I seldom even use paper and pencil for anything anymore. My wife and kids are paper and pencil use'er. I f I can have a laptop with me I then I do when not I have my PDA with me. Even in H.S. I used to use a Smith Corona typewriter because it was in my best interest to type my papers since they where easier to read. So for me typeing is like breathing.
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    getting back to the valves, ceramics has been tried. The problem is that they in practical operation offer little benefit.

    Ceramics do not expand and contract like brass does which means that the sleeves have to be glued in flexibly. Tighter tolerances are of little help as the aerosols in our breath govern how "tight" they can be before something binds. Practically speaking, a well cared for conventional valve will last a lifetime and be "tight" enough for centuries.

    I am looking at ceramics for rotary valved trumpets. There we have a different situation from a construction standpoint as there are real bearings at the top and bottom and the aerosols are not as big an issue. Presently I have carbon fiber rotary valves on my piccolo trumpet which work extremely well. They are manufactured by Lätzsch in Germany. These trumpet valves cost about EURO 500 per valve. That is the problem with small production runs!

    Lätzsch Trompeten Posaunen Trumpets Trombones Blechblasinstrumente Brasswindinstruments
     
  3. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    I am going to go and check their site out ROWUK thanks for the link! I have considered carbon fiber for the contraction of a trumpet for everything except the valve engine where I would like to keep the mass. Since some of the research I read on Watkins & Smith's web site indicated that they built a bell out of plastic and no one could tell it from the brass version with identical bore profile I was thinking that carbon fiber might work well for th entire trumpet except valve engine. The reason I mainly suggested ceramics is not to gain a lot of wear and durability rather to try and bring down their R&D cost trying to work out their casting method. Ceramics are so much easier to work with then steels from a molding stand point.

    So why did they go with carbon fiber? Is it to save or reduce weight? I was thinking that for the walls of a rotary valve percision machined inserr's made out of a smooth and well wearing material would make sense since if and when they did wear you could just change the insert. Same thing for the rotor it self. If the contact points where serviceable then a rebuild would be a s simple as removeing the contact points and screwing new one's on. If the valves body was say lined with hardened steel and contact points on the rotor where made from say brass you would never wear the valve body's surface out since the brass is softer it would wear. So in thoery you would only have to change the contact points on the rotar it self. To save weight due to steel being so much stronger then brass you would need to use less ove it. So the rotar for instance could be made out of stainless steel and have brass shoes that attached to it. The valve body would then be lined with steel insert. You follow me. The stainless steel spindle or rotar body would not wear so the thrust plate could be made from steel as well and then use a brass trust bearing to seperate the steel from steel contact. This would elimanate problems witht he thrust plates wearing badly.. Just some idea's though.

    I just know that with the cost of French horns being what they are or any rotary instrument for that matter they should not be as prone to wear as they are an dthey should be built with some parts designed to wear and those pieces should be modular and changeable. The stops should be built in much better then they are and the string should be elimanated with adjuable linkage. I am sure other's have thought of everything I suggest but not acted on them in large scale. Again the industry that is Band Instruments seem to be happy to keep doing things in a silly old fashioned way and seem to change if they can do it cheaper not better! Their are those specialty companies like the one you pointed out though!
     
  4. nickpasternack

    nickpasternack Pianissimo User

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    i think ill chime in here. ROWUK, as to the carbon fiber valves, they are EXTREMELY light right? What kind of response must you get from them. it must be lightning fast. My main complaint with some of the rotaries I have played was the valve response. For Ceramics, I know that Parker Winds made a glass belled instrument, but has anyone looked into trying a ceramic trumpet bell? So long as the resonant frequency of the given ceramic material does not exist within the operating perameters of our horns, couldnt that be a possible application? Ceramics are very strange materials to work with because they tend to remain very "neutral" under working conditions. As ROWUK said, they do not expand nor contract in the same way that brass does. It isnt a "live" substance in the same way as metal and glass is. It generally does not have a true "ring" to it. My main interest in ceramic would be as a mouthpiece material. Ceramics are EXTREMELY durable and hardy. We all know as trumpet player that mouthpieces take a huge amount of wear and tear on a daily basis. Would it not be possibly more cost effective to cast a mouthpiece from a mould as one uniform piece? Many of the variables in the design and manufacture would be cut out. CNC Laithes are accurate, but ceramics can be cast as single units EXACTLY the same way each time. YOu cna also fiddle with the composition of the ceramic used in the piece to find the right balance for a given player. I find all of this very interesting!!
     
  5. oldlou

    oldlou Forte User

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    My problem with a casting for a mouthpiece is that in many designs the 'bite' could not be accomplished. In my personal experience that 'bite' immediately along side of the rim which is smaller than the adjacent contour of the bowl is an imperitive for crisp articulation. I have in my 'accumulation' a few mouthpieces that have a minimal amount of bite, or none at all have proven to me to be quite sloppy as per articulation. If the bite is removed, it makes the mouthpiece virtually useless for me. This might be just my perception, but, a perusal of the bowl contour of most mouthpieces shows that I am not alone in my desire for that 'bite'.


    OLDLOU>>
     
  6. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    After it was cast OldLou it would have to be cleaned up a bit and that bite you love could easily be reinforced in a simple machineing step. Before the ceramics fired they are easy to work as green ware. Cheap mild steel cutting bits could be used saveing a huge cost in cutting tools.
     
  7. BrassOnLine

    BrassOnLine Piano User

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    John, Will you come to Spain for holidays or so ???
    It would be great to talk with you in person.
    If I could manage some conference about phisycs-acoustic in the USA would be great to meet you and have a chat.
    I'm almost finishing a new desing on a non-gap trumpet (no dents inside valves, Only one step inside the tubbing...).
    I love how steel valves feel and sound.
    The maker of my valves doesn't work on casting steel. Work from high grade steel bars and tubes, but brass (or bronze) casings.
    Aluminium will not last as much as I thought, as it will make a serious damage to the casings after the time.
    Got tools enough to make such things ???
    Best regards
     
  8. Dave Mickley

    Dave Mickley Forte User

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    F.Perez - you are right about aluminium not lasting, it is a very abrasive material and would wear the metal it would come in contact with.
     
  9. BrassOnLine

    BrassOnLine Piano User

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    Anyway, Audi cars are provided of aluminium engines... Maybe that's why my neighbours Audi leaks oil...
    What you would say John?
    If I'm right you got some experience in automobile industry. Would be helpful.
    About materials, Didn't Pinto trumpets were provided of a plastic valve block? How it was?
     
  10. nickpasternack

    nickpasternack Pianissimo User

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    i think that Mr. Perez should try to make a mouthpiece blank to test the theory. we dont even know if the ceramics can hld up to the shaping process after casting. the problem might be in the walls of the backbore. Ceramics are very brittle under certain types of stress. its quite possible that you could try to make a horn with a carbon fiber backbore, and a ceramic cup and throat!! That would make for an interesting piece.
     

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