fast air

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by fels, Jul 18, 2008.

  1. et_mike

    et_mike Mezzo Forte User

    Oct 16, 2007
    Chesapeake, VA
    I think you guys scared off FELS...
  2. camelbrass

    camelbrass Mezzo Forte User

    Nov 5, 2003
    Dubai, UAE
    They scared me off!!
  3. kalijah

    kalijah New Friend

    May 5, 2008
    norlands wrote:

    You dont quite understand and you are still excercising faulty "science" on two points.

    You said the magic word, "push", meaning a pressure increase.

    SImply making an aperture smaller will NOT increase the speed thru it. Again (for the third time) SIZE DOES NOT DETERMINE THE VELOCITY THROUGH AN APERTURE. Pressure does.

    Even as the velocity is higher for an increse in pressure, it is the SIZE of the vibrating area that will determine the frequency. Not the speed of the air through it.

    A smaller aperture, as manipulated by the muscles IN the embouchure allows less tissue to vibrate. This mass reduction will cause a frequency increase.

    If the "speed" of the air (throug the aperture) determined the frequency, then you would not be able to play on a constant note at different volume levels, where the speed DOES vary as well.

    Imagining air "speed" thru a "smaller" aperture is only advice to get the player to 1.make a smaller relative aperture and 2. increase pressure to provide flow.
  4. Trumpet Dad

    Trumpet Dad Pianissimo User

    Jun 20, 2008
    New Jersey, USA
    By George I think kalijah's got it nailed! :thumbsup:
  5. nordlandstrompet

    nordlandstrompet Forte User

    Apr 5, 2008
    Right! Thank you!

    I should have used the magic word "push" instead of pressure, bar/psi etc. earlier.

    May be I should learn English before I throw myself to the lions...

    By the way: "Venturi" is Latin for the English "narrow passage"? :woop:
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    you are simply wrong. Everything has been explained in adequate detail. The speed is not related to the size of the aperature for the reasons that you choose to ignore. The lips are simply less efficient at high frequencies, there is too much lost energy in the process due to the compression of the lips. Your physics have NOTHING to do with a reactive system like a trumpet.

    There is no river or garden hose in our playing, no fixed infinite compressor no venturi. Squeezing a balloon to empty a pinched throat as fast as when it is open does not raise the pitch, it breaks the balloon.
    Of course you can squeeze a balloon to increase the pressure to destroy the squeal, but you do not have a mechanism in your body for this gross distortion other than to collapse your upper body - that would be very stupid for a trumpet player to do.

    There is no venturi with the aperature. The aperature/embouchure is a mechanical switch. The aperature only represents the lips on the "open" part of the vibration cycle. Except for that fraction of a second, the lips are everywhere between closed and open - further "slowing down" the air.

    The fast air that YOU and certain other mislead people talk about simply does not exist. There is not even a need for it.
    Inhale then exhale through the horn. That is the secret for range, good tone and flexibility. The lies that have been told do not need to be upheld. In the meantime, we have enough proof that the truth is good enough!

    I will not further address your posts about this mythunderstanding, you can lead a horse to water but can't make them drink. I hope that this has finally been put to bed for most TMers. I simply dislike BS regardless of where it comes from - nothing personal!
  7. fels

    fels Piano User

    Jun 8, 2008
    Colorado Springs
    No - Fels is not scared off -

    I find the discussion and differences fascinating.

    My current effective playing range is to C# above the staff.

    I played well in high school in late 60s(all state etc) - did not play in college - played a few small bands during and after college - picked up the trumpet seriously again for classical church playing - brushed up with some lessons from the local symphonic principal, play a few weddings - now participate in a New Horizons Band (Colorado Springs).

    I love playing - keeps me sane - am trying to add notes to the upper register but dont care if do not make it past F or so. Our jazz band requires the first and second trumpet to spend a lot of time above the staff - i am looking for endurance and range. Last time i played lead, had headaches during and after.

    So i enjoy reading the various responses - points that i like so far:

    Visualization - I have found visualization effective for numerous things. Not reason it can't work for playing.

    Relaxation - No question tension limits range - found that to be true at many a wedding or performance

    Practice - I practice a lot of long tones and the Irons book. It makes sense that long high tones will be of help - have not been diligent at that yet - but am adding it to my routine. And then of course - lots of practice of pieces with high parts.

    Dont know if it has been mentioned yet - but i think another element is listening to a lot of music and then hearing the sound you want to make your head even before you try to play it. Probably related to visualization - maybe a little too zen like - but the great athletes use visulizaiton effectively - and I am a big proponent of trumpet playing as a physical workout. I enjoyed the Maynard article from Downbeat (legs).

    Thanks for all of the comments. I have enjoyed and learned from them.


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