Forward jaw troubles

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by DISHOA, Feb 24, 2012.

  1. DISHOA

    DISHOA New Friend

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    Hello again.

    I'm forward jaw player and I have a lot of trouble with it. When I try to go above staff I stick my chin to front and if I go higher I stick it even more out, when this happens I feel like I'm slightly choking my throat with my tongue. Thus I can't go higher. About year ago I was trying to push my chin back and it helped me a bit with my breathing. I could more comfortable hit the higher register. After that I've unfortunatelly undergone ingual hernioplasty and can't play for about 4 months. Now I back with my forward jaw setting and troubles are back. I thinking about change the setting from foraward jaw as it helped me earlier, but my teacher thinks it's not that good idea. What do you thing? Should I pracctice with my regular forward jaw settings or try to change it?
     
  2. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Sticking your jaw out MORE to go higher? Huh. I wouldn't know.
    I'm sure others will comment on whether this is correct or not.
    Has your teacher noticed this habit? They're the one you should talk to.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  3. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

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    If you don't trust your teacher then find a new one.

    If you trust your teacher then listen to him/her and get back to work.
     
  4. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    I truly doubt that you actually closed your throat when going higher. The concept of "keep your throat open" is a flawed idea taught by almost every single trumpet and brass teacher I'v ever met. There's just one little nagging problem with the idea: You won't ever close your throat while playing!

    Doubt me? Hahaha. Try this, blow air through your mouth and then slowly raise the back of your tongue until it seals off your throat. Guess what will always happen? You'll hear a nasty gargling sound. Often the otherwise unpronounceable syllable

    Hcheeecthphlisthppt!!

    will occur...

    Don't hear that sound? You ain't closing your throat. Case closed find something else to worry about. OK so now that you know that your are NOT closing your throat then what is the cause of the lack of upper register tone? Two areas:

    1. Breath support.

    2. Embouchure. Pretty simple isn't it? Most likely it is a combination of the two.

    For number 1 above? Just blow like hell for a few weeks. Everything you play. Don't be shy. Later I will post the Al Cass breath control concept. For number 2?

    A.Try making sure that a little bit of your upper lip hangs down below your upper teeth. Forget about the position of the chops in the mouthpiece. instead just concentrate on leaving the upper lip a little lower below the upper teeth.

    B. RELAX the lip flesh inside the mouthpiece but while still maintaining firm mouth corners.


    But mostly just BLOW LIKE HELL.

    Some 90% + of a trumpet player's problems can be solved by emphatically telling them to "JUST TONGUE AND BLOW". Screaming at a student actually helps speed up the learning process of air support. Especially if the kid responds by screaming back at you. This works! It really does.

    Never discount the concept of proper air support. Even the cats playing in Tower of Power do not always put enough air behind the horn. True fact. We all do this from time to time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    The throat is made of cartilage which is a hard tube that can't close. What DOES close on many players independent of embouchure is the vocal chords. ALL of our air passes them twice.

    What I do not understand, if you know that something works, and something else doesn't WHY CHOOSE THE WRONG THING? Why not just SLOW DOWN, reduce your practice to the range where you have success and build new habits slowly. Who is forcing you to move your chin forward?

    I will disagree with Local in the point that if you have learned a bad habit, that the fix is NOT as easy as tongue and blow. Habits are seldom singular actions. The brain and body are wired together. Body use is often twisted in other areas than the face. What you describe as the throat closing off is something else that could merely be a symptom of your whole head being angled way too far forward and not as above the spine as possible. Bad posture changes the way that we breathe - often to the detriment of playing because when our breathing sucks, we tense other parts of our body to compensate. That in turn changes the way that we do other things.

    I have found yoga/martial arts teachers to be much more useful than most trumpet teachers for solving body use problems. Why? because most of the good players are useless for bad habits as they have been tonguing and blowing all of their life and didn't go through the pains of having to fix broken body use/breathing.

    Google my "Circle of Breath" here at TM. It is free and can help lead you to a lower impact way of playing, giving you time to work on the body and change some of those habits.
     
  6. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    The problem with Rowuk's argument against "Just Tongue and Blow" is that JT&B is the most successful concept around. It is also the most simple albeit rarely tried. When compared JT&B will produce an equal or higher rate of success than any program around. Better than Stevens, Farkas, Gordon, Caruso and even (probably) Reinhardt.

    Tuba player Arnold Jacobs knew this but only his students believed him. The rest thought he was too simple. Not so!

    There are several reasons for this;

    1. The physics involved in trumpet playing is not well understood throughout the whole field. Almost everyone has it WRONG WRONG WRONG. So seen from that perspective JT&B would tend to win out. Or in other words since most all physical advice regarding embouchure is useless JT&B wins because it at least induces proper air support. All without confusing the poor student,

    2. Aggression plays an undeniably important role in trumpet playing. JT&B will help any trumpet player overcome his anxieties and play confidently.

    But I've been a hypocrite. Of all the brass players and researchers I've known at times I've been among the most likely to go too far into the micro-management of embouchure, the physical body's response and what not. I know I'm guilty of this.

    That said there can be useful tips to learn regarding embouchure and (most especially) mouthpiece choices. However the knowledge needed in this area is simply and easily learned. The only problem being of course that ALL the trumpet chop programs have it wrong. Without exception.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  7. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    I guess local must be a millionaire from all of the players he has saved. Funny how the teachers that ARE cranking out the top players do not do this. Eastmann and Julliard must be crap schools.....

    JT&B is just hot air if you are not one of the few with natural embouchure and body use.

    To be fair, there are a lot of players with simple, but still excess baggage. Many post here asking if the color of a fart changes the intonation of a double C#.

    We can all benefit by getting back to the basics, but what does that mean?

    For a player doing most things right, it means investing time in better breathing, tonguing, spending more time with the music. For MOST of us, that is not enough. I have been teaching a long time and hardly any of my students came with decent posture - regardless of age. Hardly any of them had the gift of a natural embouchure. Many had personal issues with confidence in many areas besides the trumpet. The player as a whole does not fix that stuff by doctoring on a small subset of the symptoms. They get better by integrating decent posture, attitude and playing habits into their playing. It is the INTEGRATION of everything that lets them reach their potential.

    I happen to think that the most popular embouchure systems DO have merit. I happen to think that only the uninformed challenge success as it has been practiced for years. That does not mean that any of these systems guarantees universal success, they are far better at integrating than simple blow and tongue however.

    I have yet to meet a player that did not immensely benefit from regular Yoga or martial arts training!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2012
  8. Mark_Kindy

    Mark_Kindy Mezzo Forte User

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    Yes! Just think --- you'll also be better able to defend your horns against those with the "n+1" syndrome! Wax on!
     
  9. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

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    Dishoa you say it feels like you're choking your throat with your tongue. If you are using syllables tah too tee,you might be doing them incorrectly. When going into the upper register and using the tee syllable don't arch the back of tongue,the arch should be a forward arch with the tip of the tongue behind the lower teeth. This will give you the arch without a choking sensation.
     
  10. Bob Grier

    Bob Grier Forte User

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    Local, lets see, you scream at your students, you think that no one not even the best schools and teachers "get it" the way you do. Really, you really scream at your students! Can you say "bully"! Aggression is the best way to play the trumpet. Really, well I can certainly see where you are coming from. You don't seem to respect any one but yourself. Instead of debating opinions you attack/ trash someone who takes a different view. what are you trying to prove!

    While your tongue and blow has merit in a simplistic way for many players who have bad playing habits it will not help. And you can scream at them all you want. It won't help.

    I've been helping students for decades so I know I have some experience with this. I've also made a career of playing the horn so I think I have a pretty good idea of what works. Not just for me but for my students who are all different with different problems. I seem to be very good at this just ask my students and the people who hire me to play.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2012

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