Getting a "Mature" Tone

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by TrumpetTheKid, May 16, 2011.

  1. richtom

    richtom Forte User

    Dec 7, 2003
    Last summer, I had the pleasure to play a concert with young Geoffrey Galante. He may have just turned 10 then, but regardless of whether he was 9 or 10, his sound was anything but immature. Basically put, he sounded like a seasoned professional far older than he actually was. Big sound, very musical, and he knew exactly what he wanted to sound like and did just that.
    Rich T.
  2. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    Thanks for posting this review article. The methodology is creative and is of good quality in demonstrating player differences. Albeit some of the variables the author describes as psychological, could be measured by some objective scales (for instance the picture recognition of embouchure type illustrated in another post). The data demonstrated in the player measures are very thorough. So this indeed provides strong evidence of player function in generating sound.

    Unfortunately, the author has done nothing to demonstrate the instrument component of the trumpet sound variables defined, other than comparing to a reference standard. He already demonstrated the individual player is responsible for sound differences, so this I would point out is the variable the author is actually measuring.

    The auther would have been more convincing if he optimized the mouthpiece horn combination for each player to demonstrate the effect of equipment impact on sound. Using the changes in alpha/beta angles generated and how this correlates to sound output measures was neglected and is absolutely needed before the effect of the instrument can be disquilfied. In otherwords, the authors measures were biased strongly toward measuring the player which he demonstrated.

    Unfortunately, the measures of the instrument were missing. So this study is only half completed. The author needs to go back and work on OPTIMIZING sound output on each individual player, then repeating output measures. This alone would demonstrate instrument variables he describes in the introduction.

    Additionally, there should be subjective measures of variable raters, as sound is more than just an x, y readout on a strip. Then the kappa values between raters can be used to validate the quality of this measure. Evaluators would have to be blinded to the player as well.

    So bottom line, this article demonstrates a good correlation to player variability put is not designed to demonstrate instrument function. If I read the author’s discussion right, I will give the author benefit of the doubt that this is to be reported in a continuation of this study, right? If so, I hope the author uses the advice I provided above. If not, then the proof as to which is more important, the instrument or the player will be lacking. At current were this article ends, no such comparison is between the two variables is made so no conclusion can be reached at this point as to whether the instrument or player has the most effect in generating the trumpet sound.

    Rowuk, do post a continuation of these studies as I am interested in seeing if an unbiased outcome can finally be reached in this comparison.
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    I keep an eye, ear and a bit more on the work in Vienna anyway. I will post updates and relevant info as it breaks.

    My real point here is that STYLE is actually the major difference that we hear between players in similar playing venues. The differences in equipment are more subtle.
    Here is a link of Manny Laureano playing the whole range of Monette C trumpets. We need to keep in mind that he has had no time getting used to any of these horns (where the sonic differences would also become less over time).
    YouTube - ‪Manny demonstrating 5 Monette PRANA horns‬‏
    Mannys chops are surely some of the toughest in the world.

    At the end of the day, a more mature sound involves much more than breathing and nice sound. The "style" which includes type of attack and release, choices in color, chaices in dynamics is what brings the basic "hardware" sound" to life.

    Players looking to "mature" need to spend time with better players not only for sound development, also for indications of style.

    When I take my students along for a gig, we NEVER work on sound. We ALWAYS work on articulation, length of notes, volume, timing. Nothing worse than a brilliant chord at the end of a piece and the third trumpet is too lound AND hangs over after everyone else has quit......
    Last edited: May 22, 2011
  4. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    I do not disagree with what you say, in fact, I think you bring out the highest degree of virtue in what you strive to accomplish with your students on gigs, and thanks for sharing this as such commentary should inspire many on this site, as you so often do.

    And you may be right in that the player has the greatest influence in producing the trumpet sound, but the instrument does contribute... whether it be 20%, 40% or 49.99% [in honoring your perspective that the player comprises more]. But enhancing that 20-49.99% will enhance the player's ability to achieve 100%. I myself would not be satisfied in only achieving only 50.11% to 80% of my potential.

    As for the video you post, I heard trumpets that included a more tinny sound quality (first horn) to a full rich brass sound (latter 2 horns), and I actually had a preference for the latter horns; albeit my preference, maybe not Manny’s. BUT with that said, if Manny tried to match a perfectly lathed mouthpiece with the first horn the sound I would predict, would be fuller, rounder. That is a lathed mouthpiece that is performed without changing rim size; same piece as is on the instrument now, but lathed for bore of trumpet to bore of mouthpiece match (then perhaps a little cup adjustment). In doing this, I bet we could prove a sound enhancement by at least 20%.
    Last edited: May 23, 2011
  5. TrumpetTheKid

    TrumpetTheKid Pianissimo User

    May 1, 2011
    Sacramento Area
    Thanks again for all the replies, but I don't have anyone better than me to play with, the only people that I know personally that are better than me would be my band director (who lives 70 miles away from me) and the upper class men at my school (whom I'm not friends with) and after getting into serious trouble with my parents, there's no way they'll let me take private lessons. Plus, its summer break for me so that makes finding classmates to play with even harder.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2011
  6. trickg

    trickg Utimate User

    Oct 26, 2003
    There's an old saying that says, "it ain't the arrow, it's the Indian."
  7. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    But that arrow hurts like hell.
  8. Haste2

    Haste2 Piano User

    Jun 16, 2010
    I'll mention that are lot of factors just in improving sound. Here's a brief history of steps that improved my sound:

    1)Early in my 3rd year - I started taking lessons, switched my mp from a 14a4a (ugh) to a 16C4 along with a better trumpet.

    2)between 4th and 5th years - I was playing very "sharp", above the center of resonance beforehand, so I worked on playing in tune without my slide pulled out so far.

    3)After the 6th year - Sound was lacking warmth; I began playing softly, as soft as I could; I was able to play more delicately and I actually starting sounding better (tone-wise) than some random 1st chair high school player or low-tier college player.

    4)After the 7th year - I started listening to famous classical players and I would imagine their sound when I played. After doing this for a couple months my sound FINALLY started approach a "real", resonating trumpet sound.

    5)During my 8th year - I really started listening to myself with more scrutiny, and I also finally realized that the sound you hear from where you sit DOES accurately represent what the audience hear. I was able to get my sound resonating, etc. even more.

    I got a heckuva lot of progress still to make.
  9. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

    Jan 28, 2011
    Dayton, Ohio
    Really sounds like you are on the right track. Cannot wait for that lip to heal to see how you continue to progress.

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