Getzen 300 Valves?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by lovevixen555, Jan 2, 2009.

  1. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Ok so I have not been impressed with the valves on my Getzen 300 and since it is 1970's model and was abused I chocked it up to worn out valves. Well first the valves look great. Second when I measured them they come out preety darn close to spec.! OEM specifiaction is .650 and I get .651 top and bottom of each valve and .652 in middle. So we are talking a very very tine hour glass shape. I do not recall the radial run out off hand but let's just say all the valves are close to perfectly round. Why do the valves not feel so hot to me? Their are no dents int he valve case at all. My guage set is not small enough for me to use on this to check the bore's I am going to get a smaller guage set from Vota Tools soon. I have cleaned this trumpet a bunch of times and the bore's do not visualy look pitted or have any other defect that I can discern witht he naked eye. Am I just being too picky maybe? I am so used to hearing how great Getzen valves are but really so far my Reynolds and Holton's all have better feeling valves. The Getzen has not stuck since I last worked on it but they just do not feel solid to me they feel fast though.

    I just ordered some Alisyn Valve Slide Key oil. This stuff is viscous and synthetic so maybe that will be all they need. I fired off an email to Getzen. I do not think my trumpet is under warranty because they only started that 10 years ago and they did not make the older models retroa actively life time warranteed. I wish they had though. My favorite metal detector company Tesoro did that they went to a lifetime warranty and decided that anything they ever made would also be warantied for life. Now I only buy their metal detector's. It helps though that they make a world class product and that it is made inthe USA as well. I wish Getzen had done this.

    I will let you guy's know what they say. I would even pay them to take a look at them. I would rather have the OEM look at them then someone else. The small amount of wear seems rather insignifacant to me??
     
  2. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    Well first I did not abuse it someone by the name of Edwin Thomas owned it before me. His name is writen onthe case. The story I got was that he damaged it in a marching band accident. Their forever warranty only applies to the valves built in the last 10 years so I dobt they will warranty it but I did ask them if they would look at it. Since the valves are so close to spec. you would think they would feel sliky smooth. So either something is wrong with the valve or they Getzen get's a lot of hype for their valves. When I got the thing the valves would stick and often so I have been able to free them up and get them close to what I would think is normal.

    How do you know I do not appreciate it for what it is. If I did not like Getzen's I would not have bought it now would I? Maybe in your world you go around buying things you do not like but in my world people generaly tend to buy things that they either like or think they will like based on other peoples sugestions and a bit of marketing! If I did not think it was worth keeping I would toss it in trash? Why would I give someone a trumpet with questionable valves, a crumbled bell and twisted leadpipe??? My goal is to put the thing right and save it from the trash bin.

    I was under the impression that Getzen's Gold Warranty one valves was a no questions asked policy as long as it had been made inthe last 10 year's. I am also takeing the old owners word on the age which is why I sent Getzen the seial number as well since I am only interested in them looking at the valves. I even said I would pay them if need be.

    If you had read my post the other day you would also know that my son likes this beat up trumpet. In fact if fix the cosmetic issues he actualy would like to take it to school.

    Now since so many people have told me that Getzen has killer valves I want to experince this as well. I would not expect killer valves to be out performed by a two vintage Holton's one late 70's early 80's T602 and one 1946 Holton COlligate and a Vintage Reynolds Medalist from the mid 1960's. So since their is no diemensional reason for this or obvious wear pattern on the valves I would like to find out why they are just average in their fell. They are not dreadful or anything like that just average.

    I also do not see where the age of the trumpet matters much since it is getting it but kicked by a trumpet from 1946 that also has not seen an easy life. That trumpet though has heavy wear that can be seen clearly ont he valves in some case's the plateing is completly gone done to bare metal and it has better feeling and functioning valves.

    In fact even $2000+ dollar Bach Strad's have valve problems some of them while new so what is your problem with me wanting to find out why the valves on one trumpet are not so hot? I actualy bought this trumpet just for the valves. Until I get the valves working properly the rest of the trumpet is of no use to me.

    If no one had a problem with Getzen valves then they would not be busy warranting them and would not need to sell the part's through Allied Supply now would they? Now stocks parts that do not sell and do not have a market??? So obviously their are plenty of Getzen's that are older then 10 years old which is the cut off point for their lifetime Golden Warranty on the valves. In fact their is not a company on the planet that does not turn out some lemons so just because you have not known anyone that has ever had a problem with a Getzen that was related to valves really does not mean much when you compare how many people you know who own Getzen's to how many they have sold int he last 30 years!

    In fact it has only been since the Family re aquired Getzen that their reputation has turned around. For the longest time their reputation was mud andno one took them seriously. The previously owner ran quality into the ground and reallyhurt the company but over pursueing the rental market. So Getzen has not always been the pinacle of quality. I am the first person to compliment their new pro line up.

    So back on topic with the valve measurment's I gave you and the observations I made do you have any idea what could be makeing these valves feel less then perfect? I am waiting for a constructive answere that is one topic??? Any idea's???? Oh and just for a comparison my son's Holton T602 which is 20-30 year's old has valves that are right on the money at .660 and those are monel which I am not a huge fan of. They are better thent he Getzen's for feel and speed but not as good as my 1960's Reynolds Medalist or my 1946 Holton.

    Is their a way to measure the alignment of the individual cylinders to make sure they are still true? Their is nothing I can detect with the naked eye. Since the valves themselfs look ok and measure out to what I think is reasonable wear could a mis-aligment of the individual case's cause this? If so how do I detect?
     
  3. tedh1951

    tedh1951 Utimate User

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    :-?:huh::dontknow:
     
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Valve feel is not just a function of matching piston and cylinder diameters. If the casing is not absolutely straight, there could also be some binding. The actual surface (if it has been lapped there are microscratches that hold oil - if there are smooth spots, it could have some light wear where the oil is not doing its job. If the springs are not original and in good shape, the action is also sub-optimal.

    The way I see it, you have 2 choices. Remove material until they react as you expect, or get a qualified tech to make sure that the casings are true before lapping them back in.

    We have covered insuring that the pistons are bone dry BEFORE oiling.
     
  5. CHAMP

    CHAMP Piano User

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    mr. lovevixen555, if i met you in a bar, would you talk the same way you post? holy crap...
     
  6. oldlips48

    oldlips48 Piano User

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    I bought a used Getzen 700 on ebay. When I got it the valves seemed a bit sluggish, and each valve had at least one small area on it that was darker, either from wear or metal oxidation. I touched up each spot with polishing compound, which helped, but the biggest improvement came from simply playing. As it's my main (re: only) horn, it gets a lot of use. The valves seem to have responded positively to the use so now they respond very nicely.

    A thought: You say the Getzen valves spec out to 0.651 on the ends and 0.652 in the middle whereas the Holton valves spec out to 0.660 (I assume consistently top to bottom?). Could that slightly larger 0.652 middle on the Getzen valves be giving you a slight "wobble" resulting in diminished response?

    Just a thought,
    Steve
     
  7. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

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    "Ok so I have not been impressed with the valves on my Getzen 300 and since it is 1970's model and was abused I chocked it up to worn out valves."

    I think you identified the root cause. The previous owner(s) of the horn didn't take care of it. It's anyones guess why the valves in particular aren't performing well, but my guess is that the sum total of all of the abuse the horn has received has damaged the valve block.

    I've never played a Getzen with bad valves, so I think the abuse is the key component here...
     
  8. nordlandstrompet

    nordlandstrompet Forte User

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    A "barrel formed" wear of the valves is normal.
    Just think about how they works.
    0,001 inch isn't very much to talk about....
     
  9. oldlips48

    oldlips48 Piano User

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    Jeez, I overlooked the abuse issue.

    The valves could look perfect, but if there is any distortion at all in the casings the valves will perform poorly (ask anyone that's warped the second valve casing trying to get the slide out!).

    IMHO
     
  10. lovevixen555

    lovevixen555 Banned

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    You know what I after a more careful evaluation I got out a bunch of trumpet's and tried them one after the other over and over again. Ioiled them all before use. I think that they are proably fine. I think that maybe i just had my expetations set too high. Since everyone raves about Getzen valves I figured they would be simply the best hands down. Now I am thinking that they fine just nothing more or less then any other large OEM trumpet makers valves. I am going to try replaceing the springs and guides and felts just to see if that makes a difference. I even went so far as to use Getzen's blue valve oil just to give them every possable advantage. All other trumpets that where compared where useing Holton standard valve oil. The Getzen valve oil was new and un opened hence the reason Ihad not used it prior to now. I also cleaned the Getzen with rubbing alchhole and lint fre rags prior to oiling again makeing sure they had every advatage.

    So I think they are fine I just was expecting too much from them.Getzen has not gotten back to me yet but Ihave found their email responce time to be around 2-3 days on average.
     

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