Help Me w/ Embrochure & Underbite

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by CLMS Trumpet Kid, Jul 6, 2012.

  1. coolerdave

    coolerdave Utimate User

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    This may apply or not ... if you are moving your jaw around alot while you play it will rub up against your lower lip area and cause chaffing. Lips trills and jumps found in the Haydn are the kinds of phrasing that are easiest to notice it on. Try playing and look in the mirror. If it's an issue PM me and I will shoot you a copy of something one of our pro instructors sent me.
    Always best to have an instructor work you through these things
     
  2. SteveRicks

    SteveRicks Fortissimo User

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    Good thought for addressing the problem. I play, and always have, 2/3s top and 1/3 bottom. Tried changes in the past under guidance of some excellent teachers-all eventually said go back to what worked. I did try an asymmetric a year or so ago - with the idea of using it upside down. Didn't work. Figure after about 50 years, embrochure is fairly set.
     
  3. D.C. Al fine

    D.C. Al fine Banned

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    Well yeah, after that long it would be hard to change your embouchure. But I have played an asymmetric for a week or so, not because of my mouthpiece placement but because I wanted to try it. But I find them comfortable and a great way to fix this problem.
     
  4. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Here is what the OP stated:

    "Ok, so around 2 min to 5 min on the video he mentions the red part of the lip being soft and the white part (around the lips) being more resilient to the rim of the mouthpiece...so here is my problem: My bottom lip is larger in proportion to my top lip. I place the rim of the mouthpiece on top of the red area on my bottom lip."

    So what is the problem? Answer: Access to too many videos that people believe in as the truth. THAT IS the problem here. An asymmetric will not treat the real problem here.
     
  5. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    Lesson on Lip Histology

    [​IMG]

    Low-magnification micrograph of a lip section showing one side covered by typical oral mucosa (OM), the opposite side covered by skin (S) containing hair follicles (F) and associated glands. Between the oral portion of the lips IN THE RED and normal skin is the vermilion (V), or the vermilion zone, where epidermis is very thin, lightly keratinized, and transparent to blood in the rich microvasculature of the underlying connective tissue. Because this region lacks the glands for oil and sweat, it is prone to excessive dryness and chapping in cold, dry weather. Internally, the lips contain much-striated muscle (M) and many minor salivary glands (G). X10. H&E.

    See the tissue to the left of the Vermillion (V) is "The Red" to the right "The skin" were most agree here is where the mouthpiece sits on most trumpet players. We ALL play in part on "The Red" which is PROTECTED on the thicker layer of tissue. The skin side thins to the right of the Vermillion. The RED IS MORE PROTECTED. This is why to me it makes no sense why there would be more damage for people playing on the red, and the lack of medical clinical evidence supports this conclusion. I hope this makes things more clear to the readers of this post.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  6. LiquidSean

    LiquidSean Pianissimo User

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    Since you're only in middle school right now, I'd suggest making the change while the habit is still manageable to unlearn. Talk to your instructor about it though, as s/he knows your mouth better than any of us.
     
  7. Local 357

    Local 357 Banned

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    This is not meant to be critical of the O/P but we ought to take note of his post as a perfect example of BEING TOO LIP CONSCIOUS!!! Way too lip conscious in fact.

    That said there actually are certain factors involved in order to make the best embouchure or best setting for any given trumpet player. However very few trumpet players or teachers I have met or read are even qualified to say much of anything about the matter. This true not just of the average poster here but even many/most of the big names in trumpet teaching. Most all miss it. They do not understand the physics.

    Once in a while, here and there we observe a trumpet teacher accidentally give good advice but this is usually a hit or miss suggestion. Beyond suggesting that a trumpet player do something like

    "Pucker more for better endurance, tone and range" their advice is usually pretty useless. Confusing in fact.

    Had Bud Brisbois taken the advice to "play 2/3rds upper and 1/3 lower lip"?

    He never would have been able to play lead. Instead he is known as the greatest and most accurate screech player of all time. Also in his words "Pedal tones almost ruined me".

    The idea being that embouchure and advice is PERSONAL to the individual.

    So what should the O/P do???

    In a general sense he should:

    1. Avoid over training.

    2. Practice sensibly. or learn firs to define what sensibly means in his own mind.

    3. "Just tongue and blow" as this is the only true advice that always helps.

    4. Avoid over training (yes I said that twice).

    5. Stop being so lip conscious.

    6. Avoid over training (yes I said that THREE times)
     
  8. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    So now you have 50 ways to nowhere. When you ask on the internet, you get a free for all from people that have never seen or heard you play, have no idea what your body is doing while you think about your chops. All of these "experts" tell you different things, and if you try them all out, you may NEVER find your way back.

    My advice is to follow your teacher who sees and hears you. While it is generally accepted that the red has its disadvantages, YOU changing your embouchure blindly or on the advice of those "internet acquaintances" is MUCH worse.

    The only thing that I can recommend to you for the summer vacation is to spend time with soft long tones(>1 minute each) and lip slurs - EVERY day! As your chop strength increases, those two things will help you find the most resonant center for your playing WITHOUT conciously messing around with your face. Make sure that you get a BIG breath every time, let the sound float on air. Try and keep the pressure off of the upper lip. If you do this every day, the natural contraction of the face muscles and tone of your embouchure will take care of the rest.

    Evolution, not revolution. Playing is a process that needs your body, ears and mind. Notice that I said nothing about the eyes. If you are in tune with your playing, there is NOTHING that a mirror needs to tell you.
     
  9. gmonady

    gmonady Utimate User

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    And now it's 51.

    I have just given a histological micrograph evidence that THE RED has thicker mucosal area than THE SKIN. There is no clinical evidence that playing on the red caused a significant medical problem, with much evidence that playing with the mouthpiece accross the vamillion boarder (out of the red) does. So as a medical expert, I cannot accept that playing in the red has disadvantages.

    So with all the evidence I have provided, will someone here give me conclusive evidence to the contrary? Please? Because until anyone can do this, as an individual trained in medicine; that treats and organizes workshops for musicians with injurys, and has advanced skill at scanning the medical literature as a reviewer for The Cochrane Collaborative; The Therapeuric Development Network of the CF Foundation, Past Editorial Board Member for the American Academy of Pediatrics GrandRounds and an ACP Journal Club Editor at this time, I cannot accept this position.
     
  10. CLMS Trumpet Kid

    CLMS Trumpet Kid New Friend

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    Thank you guys for all the advice. I guess I should try it out before I get it into my head that I need to do it. I'm going to go for about another year and if I'm not satifisfied I might switch =)
     

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