hidden slot?

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by ltg_trumpet, Jun 19, 2009.

  1. R.A.S.

    R.A.S. Pianissimo User

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    I need to post more. It seems embarrassing to be a "Pianissimo User".
     
  2. R.A.S.

    R.A.S. Pianissimo User

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    Hey, Vulgano Brother!

    Where does that name come from?
    Where is "home"?
     
  3. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

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    Robin!

    Could it be that you mean "the lowest note that resonates
    has a wavelength TWICE the length of the tube" ?
    This asumption would go for a tube open in both ends
    (which the trumpet is not), and would be valid for a
    flute.

    For a straight tube open in one end only, the lowest note
    would have a wavelength TWICE the length of the tube,
    and overtones would "fill the tube" with any odd number
    of half wavelengths. The first overtone therefore would
    fill the tube with 3/2 wavelengths, the second with 5/2
    etc.

    The trumpet is more complicated; it is modelled as a cone
    with the small end closed, and has a behaviour that reminds
    of a straight tube with one end closed . . .
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  4. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Sofus,
    when we study the construction of pipe organ pipes, we learn the difference between a pipe open at both ends, like a flute and the"gedackt/gedeckt" or pipe covered at one end. In the case of the trumpet, one end is acoustically closed and that means that the wavelength goes to the end of the pipe and back to complete itself. The lowest note in fact has a wavelength TWICE the length of the tube.

    The "closed end" of a trumpet because it is a horn, is the bell end. The explanation is complicated but has to do with the standing wave in the trumpet that is caused because of the mismatch in impedance of free air and that in the the horn. A clarinet, that is basically a tube with the same length of a flute, also sounds an octave lower due to this principle.

    Here is some more info on gedackt organ pipes:

    Gedackt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Encyclopedia of Organ Stops

    Why was this important for organ builders? They could shoehorn a whole octave more low notes in an organ without doubling the size!
     
  5. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    God give me the talent to change things that I can, the patience to leave the things that I can't alone, and the wisdom to know the difference!

    Utimate= unlimited time in morphing available trumpet entries

    Believe me, I am not ultimate anything.

    I have no trumpet or behavioral science books in print. What I do, I do one on one. A book would just give most an additional something to misunderstand. I really don't have anything new to offer anyway. I think Earl Irons book is the newest that I use and it is at least 30 years old, Clarke must be close to 100 years old, Arban and St. Jacome 150, Schlossberg 50.

    What I do is try to cut through the symptoms. You can't learn that by reading about it. You just have to question everything until you find the essence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  6. R.A.S.

    R.A.S. Pianissimo User

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    rowuk

    What specific area of behavioral science?
     
  7. Sofus

    Sofus Forte User

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    If I get you right, you´re saying that the mouthpiece end
    is the OPEN end, while the bell end is the CLOSED end?

    If you say so, I´ll believe it (haven´t studied this at all!),
    but I always thought that the exponential shape of the bell
    was there to fix the impedance matching between inner and
    outer air. Maybe one doesn´t want that? Maybe the trp would
    act as infinitely long then, giving resonance to nothing?
    Is there a tradeoff between how strong the trumpet is made
    to sound and how well it slots, I mean; are trumpet impedances
    matched at the bell end, but "not too much"?
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
  8. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    Vulgano is first mentioned in Cesare Bendinelli's book Tutta L'arte Della Trombetta (c. 1614) as being the designation of the fourth part in a five-part trumpet ensemble: Clarino 1, Clarino 2, Principale, Vulgano, Basso.

    In college, and later as a part of a regional orchestra trumpet section, I had the chance to perform Bendinelli's Sonate #336 for two five-part trumpet ensembles with Edward Tarr. He played Clarino 1, of course, and I played the Vulgano part. Low g's the whole time, part of the drone. Both times the person playing Vulgano in the other choir was a former roommate and drinking buddy.

    We started calling ourselves "Vulgano Brothers," liking the vulgar sound of it, and we were all into that sort of middle-linebacker-throw-your-body-around mentality that goes with good orchestral section playing. The Vulgano philosophy is to make the first player sound good at any cost.

    "Home" is where the heart is, not too far from "Parts Unknown."
     
  9. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    You got it right. Actually only a small portion of the sound even escapes from the trumpet. That was my grounds for disqualifying fast air. We blow into the horn, the resonance of the horn structure "reflects" the soundwave back to our lips and that supports them. This is also the reason why buzzing on the mouthpiece is not as productive as one would imagine. There is no standing wave to support the lips.

    I don't know if we can call the efficiency vs tone of an instrument a tradeoff. First of all, most players don't know how they really sound, but they will post for days on slotting ;-)

    My take is that we often think too much instead of just playing. The fantasies of trumpet sound have caused a great deal of brand blindness. A symphony player not being able to do his job correctly without a Bach or specific Yamaha, some Jazz players being castrated without their Martin Committees.

    It is a fact that an efficient trumpet will not give the player as much freedom in shading their tone. The true artisan trumpet builder can fool the player by designing a less efficient instrument, with a bit more feedback (thinner bell, different brace placement.....). Then the player "feels" like they have the best of all worlds.

    It is even possible to change the intonation of individual partials by changing the taper of the Mouthpiece, leadpipe or bell or damping vibration through mass at certain places on the horn. Schilke wrote about one of his leadpipes having 14 steps to perfect the intonation. That text must be located somewhere here: http://www.dallasmusic.org/schilke/ , but I don't remember where.

    The trumpet really only works because it is not built as a perfect horn for amplification. The impedance mismatch makes it capable of producing tones at all.
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2009
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  10. Vulgano Brother

    Vulgano Brother Moderator Staff Member

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    tedh1951 likes this.

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