High debts end the music for some students.

Discussion in 'TM Lounge' started by PhatmonB6, Nov 29, 2005.

  1. Tootsall

    Tootsall Fortissimo User

    Oct 25, 2003
    Yee HAW!
    Music isn't the only course of study that costs a TON of debt to get through. It is, however, one of the ones with a lower chance of actually being able to acquire a job decent enough to allow paying off those debts.

    Woe the culture that doesn't value education enough to support it.
  2. Jimi Michiel

    Jimi Michiel Forte User

    Mar 22, 2005
    That picture is ironic. I have a very big debt because I got a degree from the New Egland Conservatory. I would have much less debt if the school didn't spend such an insane amount of money on their string faculty. Sure, Don Weilerstein is a great musician from one of the best string quartets of the 20th century, but all the wind players at school resented his huge salary at the expense of our scholarships. ARGH.

    PS Anybody need to hire a trumpet player in the Twin Cities? PM me.
  3. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

    Sep 29, 2004
    I definitely don't support the idea of government doing more than it already does.

    All it will succeed in doing is what has already happened: tuition costs rising disproportionate to the inflation rate.


    I think low-cost student loans are great. I think private scholarships are great. I think foundations for scholarships are wonderful. I give to my alumni fund for that very reason. The problems of education, musical or otherwise are attitudinal and cultural not financial. The problems of education are largely based in the lack of support from parents who send kids to school and hold teachers responsible for 100% of the education of their children and won't follow up what their children are taught. "That's the teacher's job, not mine" is a lousy attitude and doesn't help our teachers.

    We have, as per my observation on this board, excellent teachers. Toots and Bandman are examples of caring teachers that I would trust with my children. I know there are others but they do the most writing about teaching and come to mind first. They would be excellent teachers irrespective of what you pay them. Their budgets determine the ease of their jobs. I've heard "Manny would sound good no matter what horn he plays". Therefore, I feel good about saying what I did about those two gentlemen. It's a question of what makes it easier for one to be effective.

    I put the onus of funding education on local governments and the people in those communities and states. If the fed becomes continually more involved in sending people to school, the prices will continue to rise artificially for lack of incentive to be competitive.

    Toots, I know you have strong feelings about this and I'm eager to hear your thoughts regarding the collegiate level funding as it is.

    By the way, this post was written by someone who lost his foundation-based scholarship after his first year at Juilliard for not keeping up his grades. I had to pay tuition the hard way, took out a loan, and paid the loan off after I got my job in Seattle. Before that, I presented my dad with a check for $1,500 to say thank you for sending me to college. That was money I had earned freelancing while in school. I can still remember his face at my gesture to him and it was the proudest moment of my life. It still is.

  4. PhatmonB6

    PhatmonB6 Mezzo Piano User

    Jan 16, 2005
    I understand what you are saying. It is a very good feeling to give back to your parents for everything they have done for you. After all with out them I would not be here. ;-).
  5. Tootsall

    Tootsall Fortissimo User

    Oct 25, 2003
    Yee HAW!
    Thanks for the compliment, Manny... but I'm not a teacher. I tried it when I was in University and found that it wasn't really for me... the whole class-room/lab thing just wouldn't work out. I like to design and build "things", trouble-shoot, analyse, "get my hands dirty".

    I do have very strong feelings on our North American system of education including how it has developed as a result of our culture; and where our culture might be headed as a result of our education system. I look at the ratios of capital spent on Research and Training by corporations as a percentage of their revenues and I can easily see why other cultures are capable of so quickly passing us by.

    That old line "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it" comes to mind within the context of other "powerhouse civilizations" (Roman, Greek). They were so successful that they started to "believe their own advertising" and fell back on self-indulgent behaviours that spelled their demise.

    While I don't disagree that there is a limit to how much the public purse can be expected to contribute to the educations of a (relative) few, there is always the counter-argument that education of a society's students is for the long-range benefit of the entire society. Low interest (or no interest) loans might be the way to do this but I am somewhat concerned about the increasing reliance on corporate funding for education.... that will tend to produce students who specialize only in the fields promoted by those corporations. Can we expect the symphonies to produce ALL of the funding for music students? What about jazzers? The Humanities? Environmental studies? Who will pay for the education of teachers?... school boards? But aren't they "public organisations"?

    Yeah, it has the potential to be a can of worms, but only by discussing it openly, making it an election issue, and engaging all of the stake-holders will we, as a North American society, be able to manage our own destiny.

    And I am unanimouse in those thoughts! :D
  6. Manny Laureano

    Manny Laureano Utimate User

    Sep 29, 2004

    I did it AGAIN, Toots, mistaking you for Glenn! I don't know why I do that!

    My apologies to both of you..

    Gosh, what an idiot.

  7. tpter1

    tpter1 Forte User

    Jan 12, 2005
    Northern New York
    One of the attitudinal problems seems to be that our culture places its greatest emphasis on things that distract us from reality: sports, television, video games and the like. (How much does someone like Shaq earn per year? Why does he need that much money?) Education brings reality to us (or, us to reality, depending on your view and attitude at the moment learning is taking place). This only seems to be increasing. Our fascination with all things superficial, false or covering up is leading us on an ever-increasing downward spiral, pulling us from reality.

    There are16 full time orchestras in the US that pay a wage that would be decent enough to support a family while paying off student loans, buying a car, rent or mortgage, and beginning an investment in either retirement of your child’s college fund. Oh yeah…instruments cost a lot of money at that level, as well. A string player must take a mortgage to have the tools necessary to do his/her job; bassoons are almost as much as a car.

    Thinking further, of those 16 orchestras, assuming each has a 4 person trumpet section, that leaves 64 positions that will do the above. How many people are graduating as trumpet performance majors from schools such as Julliard, Manhattan, Curtis, Boston Conservatory, Berklee, Oberlin and Eastman? (No particular order!) What are the odds that a job will be there when these folks graduate? The numbers, by the way, of brass players majoring in performance is in on a steady increase.

    How are those folks supposed to repay their loans when the majority of them will have a degree that earns them a salary just above minimum wage or worse yet is unreliable? Many of them will work second jobs while playing with either several per-service groups or freelancing it. (Not many of those will come close to being as successful as Wilmer).
  8. cornetguy

    cornetguy Mezzo Forte User

    Sep 12, 2005
    Saint Paul, MN
    one thing i have always wanted to see is for a college to get rid of the rob-peter-to-pay-paul scholarships. you know, using my tuition money to give scholarships to others, it does happen look at most (if not all) colleges "where does your tuition money go." and in my experience, most of the students that got that where p---ing the scholarship away, not showing up for class, taking collge seriously, thinking that it was party time. i think that they should get rid of those and cut tuition back down to affordable levels for most people (i think the number i saw was about 33% but maybe a little less it has been a few years)

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