High notes- yes another topic, positioning help

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by orcanels, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    of course you can "reduce" the amount of lip mass that vibrates, which will increase the vibration rate (frequency) and raise the pitch. You can do that by tightening the lips.
    so you can close the aperture, tighten the lips and increase pitch.

    If you keep the lips in the same position as you ascend (which I believe is what most of the "high note" guys who suggest "High Speed Air" are saying.) You know - to keep the sound clear and the upper register from getting to thin. THEN YOU MUST DO SOMETHING TO INCREASE VIBRATIONS TO THESE LIPS -- all things considered, when you increase pressure - and that passes the lips (of the same aperture as lower notes) -- that is faster air.

    I really don't think faster air -- is a lie.
    Brass instrument (lip reed) acoustics: an introduction

    might I suggest a "good physics teacher" will aid people in understanding
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
  2. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    Here is another video. Again the argument is - not does this (double G) have enough acoustic or musical value to be played in a concert, but rather HOW this guy is playing these notes.

    The elevated chest to increase air FLOW/SPEED/PRESSURE -?, pushing from the diaphragm muscle, head tilted back for efficient air control --- and might I add? the dude looks to be in excellent physical shape.

    so - these guys that say "HIGH NOTES" are easy --- sorry, but this doesn't look easy (especially for a 45 yr old guy like me) --- but hey -- there it is.

    YouTube - Maynard Ferguson's Ole ending
     
  3. stumac

    stumac Fortissimo User

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    Also a basic understanding of the anatomy and physiology of breathing will dispel the myth of pushing with the diaphragm.

    At rest the diaphragm is like an inverted bowl attached all around the rib cage, at inhalation the diaphragm contracts and flattens, increasing the volume of the chest and allowing air to flow into the lungs, at exhalation the diaphragm relaxes and returns to its resting state.

    The only way we can increase air pressure and force exhalation is by the abdominal muscles pushing the gut against the diaphragm.

    Regards, Stuart.
     
  4. fraserhutch

    fraserhutch Mezzo Piano User

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    High notes ARE easy, but hard work. Does that make sense? At least in my experience:

    There's the finesse part, and the physical part. When we start out, the first is really hard to get right, and the second is that much harder for it,. As we learn the finesse part, the second becomes easier, but it never goes away. There will always be the physical effort involved in playing high notes, however, in the same way as we can become inured to other physical activity through reps and correct form, we can become inured to the rigors of playing high notes by playing them right and often.

    Also, can we please avoid this need to continually correct the time-worn trumpet analogy of using the diaphragm? It seems to me it never adds to the discussion, and we all know (or should know) that when someone talks about support from the diaphragm, or using the diaphragm muscle(s), they're talking about using the muscles in the abdominal area to support/compress the air stream. at this point, it's largely a pedantic objection that almost always ends up as a flame war..... if the idea gets communicated, it's correct in this context. Correcting it communicates nothing other than a need to be correct.

    What would be of infinitely more value would be for people to discuss how the use their muscles for support. Greg Lyons taught me the Wedge breath, so, my initial air support comes from much lower than the "diaphragm area. As I need to add support, I will add further compression from the lower abs. However, I take care to keep my chest area free of tension - my support never feels any higher than what I view as my diaphragm. Personally, I generally only need to kick my "higher gear" in when I play above the E above high C, and when I'm above a G above high C, it's all a tightly focused air stream. At this point it seems to me that the highly compressed air is largely needed to counteract the additional mouthpiece pressure to that my chops don't cave in.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  5. Markie

    Markie Forte User

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    Let me suggest this:
    Study how Maynard plays. Watch his moves, how he stands, how he sounds.
    Read what Maynard sez about how to play high.
    The way I began in 9th grade was to eat drink and sleep Maynard Ferguson and take simple pieces like Oy Como Va up an octave in marching band.
    Did it suck? well yes!! Just about everything does in the beginning.
    However, by 10th grade on, I was playing stuff like, Give it One, Chameleon, and the other basic high note tunes of the 1970's
    Just don't hurt yourself by shoving the mouthpiece down your piehole and study Maynard inside and out.
    Hope this helps
     
  6. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    I think the basic point I was trying to make in the clips was that HIGH notes take some effort, and some training. Whether one considers that to be abdominal muscles or Diaphragm muscles ((OR BOTH)) is really not the point. Rather the point is BOTH of these groups of muscles can be trained by the ATHLETE/TRUMPET PLAYER.
    The abdominal muscles and diaphragm muscle (involuntary or not) can be strengthened to aid in efficient lung functioning. Whether that is for sports performance, trumpet playing, or recovering from a lung disease.
    Perhaps Maynard, Cat Anderson, etc. and some of the other high note specialists TRAINED for that.

    below are a few examples - but the medical and physiological studies are quite numerous that support strengthening BOTH abdominal and diaphragm muscles to aid in breathing.

    "Exercise improves the conditioning of the diaphragm, the muscle that separates the chest from the abdomen, and the intercostal muscles, which lie between the ribs and enable you to inhale and exhale," says Everett Murphy, M.D., a runner and pulmonologist at Olathe Medical Center in Olathe, Kansas. "When you take a breath, 80 percent of the work is done by the diaphragm. If you strengthen your diaphragm, you may improve your endurance and be less likely to become fatigued
    ((How To Breathe When Running at Runner's World.com))
    Respiratory muscle strength training with nonrespiratory maneuvers -- DePalo et al. 96 (2): 731 -- Journal of Applied Physiology
     
  7. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    oh know - I am 45 -- am I too old to be able to play the high notes? We will see. I am somewhere between the "I suck at high notes" and "wow I can actually play and sustain a tune there, with some musicality - only up to DHC though"
    I hope to someday inspire OLD people or young people, to do whatever they LOVE to do - and do it to the best of their ability
    of course it may (physically be too late to be a HIGH NOTE guy -- but if I get a few lines on musical high note -- maybe that will suffice)
     
  8. fraserhutch

    fraserhutch Mezzo Piano User

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    Um, if you own a double C, you can call yourself a high note guy.

    And you can do it at any age, barring physical infirmity.
     
  9. vntgbrslvr

    vntgbrslvr Piano User

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    I would suspect the ability to produce high pitches with a trumpet has little to do with the tongue guiding the volume air through the aperture, but the ability to sustain the pressure behind the buzzing aperture (air support) that has the most impact on it. There is little actual movement of air through a horn, particularly as the frequency increases into the higher range. Hence the feel of "back-pressure" as you climb the scale. It's not the resistance of airflow through the horn causing back-pressure, but the high frequency of the aperture that gives you the feel of more resistance as range goes up.

    The muscular structure to maintain the pressure behind the aperture, and the muscular structure to maintain the aperture itself are the real keys to playing higher in a more musical manner. Pinching to maintain an aperture without enough support can maintain the frequency, but will sound thin and probably be more difficult to keep in pitch. Mouthpiece pressure to maintain aperture at a certain frequency will work for a short time, but will fail quickly because it isolates the tissues from the muscular support it needs for durability... Hence the often renewed suggestions of a good teacher for proper muscular control, mouthpiece pressure, and practice time to train your diaphragm for great air support.
     
  10. kingtrumpet

    kingtrumpet Utimate User

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    Thank you - I might start referring to myself as a High note guy -
     

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