Hitting the High Notes.

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Jackaman321, Jun 9, 2009.

  1. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

    Oct 16, 2008

    Then I respectfully disagree. I have no idea what how to conceptualize where the muscular function of where my embouchure is or I use it to "progress to the next step". I reduced the amount of pressure I was exerting on my face, started playing a daily routine of long tones and lip slurs, and played music whenever I could.
  2. Clarence

    Clarence Mezzo Forte User

    Jun 23, 2005
    san diego
    That's what it's all about right there!
    Keep this up and you will have your chops back in a year!
    But there's no way around it.....ya gotta rebuild the chop's again.
  3. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

    Jun 18, 2006
    Mark, our opinions on what is success may differ greatly. While I agree that raw muscle strength MAY be able to be developed with a "logical program". there is NO WAY that the fine motor habits that govern consistency and accuracy can be "rushed". Synchronizing the lip, tongue and breathing apparatus is a function of (thousands of) repetitions over time.

    Just like we need YEARS of Clarke studies to get perfect evenness in fingering, there is no short cut to those fine motor face skills.

    I think the potential danger of a method that optimized building muscle strength is that coordination with the other processes would not be built at the same speed, essentially forcing these factors to be twisted - ultimately not speeding the building process one bit. Maybe even slowing us down.

    The building process itself is very much dependent on the amount of repetitions and the accuracy of such. Even with comeback players, rushing the upper octave makes no sense if the fingers and musical taste do not accompany the process.

    The exceptional player may have fingers or musical taste in abundance, there still is no shortcut for the rest. We are not building musical dragsters - 1/4 mile as fast and loud as possible. We are building rallye chops where strength is only a very small factor in even reaching the winners line.

    There is a bit of truth in just about anything offered in the trumpet world. It is funny how nobody has been able to develop a recipe for cranking out players - in spite of all of the claims. The real truth just ends up being much bigger.
  4. Al Innella

    Al Innella Forte User

    Aug 9, 2007
    Levittown , NY
    I agree with markquinn, if you know and understand what makes your embouchure work, you can then teach this to others, I know because I struggled with range for many years , [ E above the staff] until I understood what to do, that's why a lot of excellent high note players can't really explain how they do it, they never had to over come any embouchure faults of their own. Where practicing long tones,lip slurs, Clarke and Arbans are all excellent and necessary they can't do it alone.
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  5. markquinn

    markquinn New Friend

    Jun 9, 2009
    I am reading responses to the post that I published yesterday, and I am saddened by what I am reading. It was my hope that people would at least look at the materials referenced before making decisions. It is my belief that people did not even go the to the referenced matierals to look at the information before posting a response.

    I can understand that people would not have a reference on how do an analysis of muscular functioning. I stated that its is currently not taught in the regular music system. Part of the Anatowind process is to learn to analyze their muscular function. Consider reading the following article from the Anatowind website: Analyze/Paralyze & Fear of Embouchure Change

    Anatowind starts with the person as the center of the musical process. The person must be open minded enough to new ideas to be willing to explore options that will lead to change and through change comes improvement.

    The discussions on rushing things and short cuts in terms of my playing and progress, or anyone else for that matter, are not founded. I have 20 years of time invested in my muscular development and coordinations despite the time I have taken off the horn; I have not rushed that. I think people are reacting to the pace in which I stated I attained results upon my return to playing. By the way, discussing the results I was aiming to attain, I find it interesting that nobody has asked what those results were or how I measured improvement from session to session or day to day to KNOW I was improving.

    What I was able to do was to be able to follow my muscular functioning and put it back into practice very quickly. I still have to build endurance and continue to follow the process of Anatowind. Understanding my muscular functioning allowed me to put a plan into place and know what music notation to approach for practice that aided my embouchure coordination's progress rather than hinder it. There are NO SHORTCUTS to muscular functioning, Time is part of the process. I still had to spend the time, I was just able to aquire results I was trying to get more efficiently due to the manner in which I approched the process across the time spent.

    Muscular function is a constant. We all do it. But do you understand what you do and why? Can you explain HOW and WHY the "warm up routine" you follow is helping you from day to day; or is it blindly followed and played through without thought because its the latest fad or someone said "this is the way its done". If you are doing a "routine" and not getting expected results, can you explain why that might be the case; and more importantly, what to change to improve it with out resorting to a "trial and error" approach? Do you have expectations of goals for each practice session and know how to plan to meet them and adjust those goals as needed based upon the muscular formation's performace during that session?

    The question is how will you spend your time. We all have only 24 hours in a day to maximize our growth as people and as players. We owe it to the efforts we give to improve ourselves daily to look at methods that can allow us to improve more efficiently, just at athletes have been doing for years.

    Anatowind has secured a U.S. Patent in 1961 on the process, along with a Doctoral Dissertation in 1975. Research has been done and withstood the scrutiny of examination. I believe that wind players should avail themselves of any and all information that could lead to improvement.

    This information will not resonate with everyone who reads it. I understand that. My intent for posting the information is to allow others who are searching for improvement and answers to questions about their performance to gain access to the information and decide for themselves how they wish to pursue it. My final post on the subject.
  6. gbdeamer

    gbdeamer Forte User

    Oct 16, 2008
    Just so you know, I went to the website. I thought it was well developed, and logically laid out. Still didn't win me over.

    I'm one of those who the information didn't resonate with, but please don't take that as an attack on your system or methodology. It's just not something that would work for me.

    Back in the day I was a baseball player and a decent pitcher. I had a sound warmup routine I followed, good discipline on the mound, and a sound maintenance plan for off days. Would I have benefited from a detailed understanding of the musculature of my arm, legs, and abdomen?(It worked very well for Nolan Ryan). In my case I'd say probably not. Maybe it's because I went to public school, but that level of detail would hamstring me. I know myself, and I would get so lost in those details that my foundation would crumble.

    Again, there seems to be a lot of (good) science behind your methodology, but my brain isn't geared that way. I think you would do yourself a dis-service by making this your last post on the subject. Just because I'm not on board it doesn't mean that others aren't at least curious.

    It took many years and lots of refinement in delivery for people to get behind Callet's superchops and TCE methods...
  7. markquinn

    markquinn New Friend

    Jun 9, 2009
    I understand what you are saying.

    I choose to make it a last post only so as not to beat the topic to death. I am more than willing to discuss with those who are interested, do not mis-understand.

    I have seen many times on boards where continued discussions can turn into flame wars. Being new on the board, I still need to see what the lay of the land is here.

    As I stated, I wanted to share the information so other players can choose what they think is best for their development. So many good things go under developed or un noticed due to people not discussing it openly and where others can hear the discussion.

    thanks for the response.
  8. EdMann

    EdMann Mezzo Forte User

    Sep 20, 2007
    Los Angeles
    Alright, then I'm inspired to pipe in. Here's how the Antowind system is described on the home page:

    "Anatowind as a term was coined from the words “anatomy” and “wind” as referred to in band or wind instruments."

    Nowhere in the link posted above does the word "wind" appear in the text outside of "hooking up breathing" with embouchure. I know, I know, the bulk of the posts above is about embouchure, but if air doesn't come first, nothing works! If a column of consistent air isn't delivered to the chops, the chops are going to do more work, and frankly, that's inefficient. Clearly mpc placement, tongue and chop muscles (to a small degree, IMO) are then going to fall into place after you're playing the sounds you want to hear coming out of the bell of your horn. I'm seeing this work with my 10 year old ("imitate my sound, and relax," and it happens!).

    My range went nowhere until I got that straight in my head, and it sures makes life easier when you can think about air and sound more than the 20 some-odd muscles surrounding the lips. As for the athletic analogy, a golfer will change his/her stance or swing if they're not getting things where they want to go, making adjustments. In other words, the result is dictating the change and practice codifies it.

    a big two cents,

  9. veery715

    veery715 Utimate User

    Mar 6, 2007
    Ithaca NY

    Since you have not stated it, will you affirm you are an independent beneficiary of the Anatowind system, and are not seeking to promote the site for personal gain? Having written an article on their homepage, in combination with your fairly "promotional" posts here, certainly makes you sound like you are marketing for them.

  10. cbdmd

    cbdmd Pianissimo User

    Dec 31, 2007
    East Coast
    :-? very interesting ;-)

Share This Page