Holes in a natural baroque trumpet

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Lionelsax, Mar 3, 2014.

  1. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, It was Otto Steinkopf but there are discussions about the holes being from the 50s or 60s. I talked to Finke about this 35 years ago or so and he "couldn't remember".

    In any case, from the baroque era there is no evidence of "holes" even in the instruments from various museums. I attended a course on natural trumpet building last year and made one.

    http://trompetenmacher.yolasite.com/trompetenbau-workshop.php

    We all had the good luck of having Jean-Francois Madeuf at the course. He performs all of the baroque stuff without holes and has many compelling arguments as to why it is better that way.

    Still, the holey trumpets have a good purpose: they allow players that do not have the time for the high degree of specialization to get most of the "effect" of the older playing style. The sound is much different, but only the specialists make a big deal about it.

    Here are some links to Jean-Francois' amazing playing (live performances - not edited recordings!):
    Nr 64 Christmas Oratorio Weihnachtsoratorium Baroque Natural Trumpet without holes Barocktrompete Naturtrompete ohne Löcher 21 12 2008 Hannover - YouTube
    Nr 8 Christmas Oratorio Weihnachtsoratorium Baroque Trumpet without holes Jean François Madeuf Konzert 21 12 2008 Hannover Jean François Madeuf - YouTube
    Bach BWV1047-3 - YouTube

    It is "proof" that we do not "need" the holes, but that many more players will have access to a closer representation of the period IF we do have them!
     
  2. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    To answer the Thread Owners question:

    The holes make it "easier" to tune notes that would otherwise require a lot of lip service. The lions share of the intonation can be solved with one hole for the F and the A. The rest increases security by giving a couple of cents here and there.

    The sound when ventilated is in my opinion much "thinner" than the real thing. The modern intonation possible also destroys the sense of tonality that the real natural trumpets have. Why is easily explainable:

    If we play on the partials, all tones are mathematically perfectly related. One wavelength in the horn is the fundemental (C for instance), then comes two wavelengths in the horn - an octave (also c). Three wavelengths is a fifth(g), 4 wavelengths is the next octave(c), 5 wavelengths is a third(e) that alone sounds a bit flat, but when played with the c and g gives you such a resonant major chord that you NEVER want to hear it differently ever again! 6 wavelengths is a g an octave higher, 7 is a flat Bb that also works extremely well with the lower notes. 8 wavelengths is our c, yet another octave higher. 9 wavelengths is a d fairly well in tune, 10 (2x 5) is the next e. 11 is a tough one as it is too low for an F# but too high for an F. The big hole takes care of the f and a small one the f#. With practice, they can also be lipped into correct intonation with a more consistent tone than with a hole!. 12 wavelengths (2x6) is our g again, 13 is a very flat a that is easily fixed with a hole, but VERY difficult to lip. 14 (2x7) is Bb an octave higher, 15 is b natural and 16 (2x8) is our c again.

    So, I can say that except for the a which needs a lot of training, the rest of the notes work VERY well on the real natural trumpet. 3 or 4 holed trumpets just give the more "occasional" player real opportunities and players like Friedemann Immer, Gabriele Cassone or Niklas Eklund (and many others) the possibility to match valved trumpet intonation if desired.
     
  3. RSB7B

    RSB7B New Friend

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    NYC
    Arrgh!!!
    How COULD you!!
    The worst joke in YEARS!
     
  4. RSB7B

    RSB7B New Friend

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    Nov 7, 2006
    NYC
    gmonady ....

    Arrgh!!!
    How COULD you!!
    The worst joke in YEARS!
     
  5. Lionelsax

    Lionelsax Mezzo Piano User

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    May 8, 2013
    Thanks very much, that's wonderful !
     

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