Home Ultrasonic Cleaner

Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by hhsTrumpet, Sep 22, 2014.

  1. musicalmason

    musicalmason Forte User

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    Are you sure the horns that were being played changed because of the vibrations though? Maybe the played were simply getting dirty while the control remained factory clean. Maybe the moving parts broke in and lost some degree of compression. Maybe the user got more used to that horn, became more comfortable on it and that changed the sound. There are a lot of variables there to claim that it was the vibrations changing the horn.

    Regarding the damaged bell, that does not surprise me.
     
  2. TrentAustin

    TrentAustin Fortissimo User

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    Let's see those results rowuk. Everyone in the industry uses ultrasonics. If there was something wrong with it guys like Yamaha wouldn't use it. I have my doubts of your research until I see the actual studies.
     
  3. motteatoj

    motteatoj Mezzo Forte User

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    I do work with two of the world's largest ultrasonics manufacturers in the world (both happen to be in CT).
    Like anything else, the tool has to be designed for the work intended, and the tool user has to be trained.
    This is an industry, brass cleaning, that is like every other that uses ultrasonics....plastic welding for auto manufacture, jewelry cleaning, ultrasonic mixing, defoaming that requires research, design, and most likely (and herein lies the rub) trial and error.

    Ultrasonic cleaning of brass instruments...
    Does it work?.....yes
    Can you damage a horn?....yup
    Do you have to know what you are doing?....yup
    Will you make mistakes and learn from them?...most likely

    If you go out and buy tools to work on your car, and don't know what you are doing, is there a good chance you will break something?....yup.
    Even doctors 'practice' medicine...
    Trust your tech (well, find a good one then trust, I use IVAN).
     
  4. veery715

    veery715 Utimate User

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    It's a different meaning of that word, however:

    noun: practice
    1. the actual application or use of an idea, belief, or method as opposed to theories about such application or use.
    "the principles and practice of teaching"


    Truth is, both medicine and horn repair/maintenance, though based on lots of science, are ART (imho).
     
  5. tobylou8

    tobylou8 Utimate User

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    So where do I go for mercury therapy? :roll:
     
  6. rowuk

    rowuk Moderator Staff Member

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    Trent,
    anyone that has spent time with the Yamaha company knows that they are the #1 in the world of material science. No other manufacturer has the consistency of product performance over so many disciplines as Yamaha. The fact that they (probably) use ultrasound for many things is logical and I am sure that they have it down to a science. I'll even bet that THEY know exactly what they would need it to do and do not have one second too much or too little.

    That being said, I thought that it was clear that I was not talking about new horns or junkers. I am talking about the instruments that we live with for a very long time, the ones that we break in and break us in. I have my doubts and the more that is written here, the more I realise that my doubts about how many out there have even CONSIDERED the possibility of danger are confirmed (almost no one). My doubts about the process do not go away just because the horns come out shiny with valves that go up and down smoothly and lacquer well.


    I don't understand the problem. I don't understand why those of you with no curiosity about the issue are trying to convince me when you have no data yourselves. Who loses anything by asking questions? Who gains when no one even wants to consider the issue? Why does anyone have to be on a particular side of the issue. How many issues has mankind been confronted with because they didn't ask questions?

    I understand that when one is running a brass business, that ultrasound is an efficient way to get things done. I understand that when someone has made the investment that commercial considerations change the way that we look at things. I have no problems with the technology as I will not use it until I know that it is safe and that the tech with it really has my concern at heart. I have that tech (that I blindly trust) and have not had any issues by not using ultrasound. He has not tried to convince me that ANY work that I need would be better with ultrasound.

    My students all learn about the proper and regular care and feeding of their instruments. We don't let them get so dirty that we need this type of "force" to clean them again. There are very cheap USB cameras that fit in the bore of brass instruments. With them, we can see where we need to do a better job. I use the camera regularly......

    So, all of you, just lighten up. If I am missing something, then it is my problem. Next time you get your horn cryoed or blasted with ultrasound, think about the results afterwards. If you are happy, GREAT. If you have doubts afterwards, jump in, the water is fine.
     
  7. musicalmason

    musicalmason Forte User

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    Rowuk,

    I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I already stated I don't expect to change your mind. You were the one who said you had data:

    "Actually, this is data that I have. Spectral analysis of three horns over 5 years. The control horn was only played for the test and did not change. The two working horns changed, the one used for lead playing, quite dramatically. We checked the impedance maxima(intonation) as well as the harmonic content."

    I never claimed to have data, just lots of anecdotal evidence. You were asked to share the data you said you had. That's all. Believe what you want, but if you have data that proves your point, bust it out.
     
  8. TrentAustin

    TrentAustin Fortissimo User

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    Not being confrontational, just would love to see these results.

    We clean horns here in at least three different methods, including but not limited to ultrasonics fyi.
    -T
     
  9. musicalmason

    musicalmason Forte User

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    I also want to point out that I don't currently own an ultrasonic, as I already stated. I don't currently do enough volume for it to effectively pay for itself. A large percentage of the volume I do is student horns and rental stock, where the customer could generally care less how the instrument is cleaned. I use mainly a combination of chemical cleaning and powered brushed (aka texas flush) depending on the horn. So, I have no vested interest in defending ultrasonics, as it doesn't really effect me or my business. I do have a vested interest in facts and data concerning the instrument repair trade. If something is good or bad, I want to know about it, it will effect future decisions I will make for my shop.
     
  10. motteatoj

    motteatoj Mezzo Forte User

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    Meow. Kitten fight!
     

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