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Discussion in 'Trumpet Discussion' started by Ian000450, Dec 28, 2011.
Rapa preaches that it's all about air and tongue placement. Watch some of his other videos... As far as Rashawn goes....well, he's Rashawn Ross. Ever since I started listening to his stuff, I've called him Rashawn Boss. He's just one of those un-explainable guys. You ask him how he does it and he just laughs modestly!
The dude on the far right on the video even had a sluggish 3rd valve !
L357 - Good stuff. Only thing I'd challenge is the stance that only MF had the great double high sound.
Bill Chase had it too, and some of MF's other lead guys had it.
Local357, you expressed well why it didn't work well for you and why you believe it also wouldn't work well for others, but how would you know that the system failed most of those who tried it? I mean, that would be rather difficult to know, wouldn't it? I am not asking to challenge you, I just would like to get a better perspective on the relative success/failure of this system. In the mid 60s when I was having range problems, a friend of mine, former lead player with Woody's and Stan's bands, gave me an article about Stevens because he thought I might benefit from it. I didn't follow up on it but always wondered what would have happened if I had've.
Well two things here. Sorry, make that three. One I'm an old fart and corresponded with Roy Stevens back in the day. Two, I knew several of his students and have since been contacted by others who studied with him. One of those cats is an east coast pro and knows of many failed Stevens students. Three, I tried the technique myself off and on for over thirty years and couldn't pull it off. At least not as described in his book "Embouchure Self Analysis and triple C technique".
So i kinda feel that I'm in a unique position to not only evaluate the flawed system but to explain WHY it doesn't work for so many. The explanation I came up briefly put is this:
Within each trumpet player the elasticity of the upper lip varies. It not only varies in consistency (coarse vs. supple) from one player to the next but varies from where the lip is most vibrant. This meaning that some cats only have extremely vibrant flesh on the inner membrane of their upper lip. These cats MUST blow receded jaw which is sometimes inaccurately called "Downstream".
I don't use the term "Downstream" or "Upstream" to describe the blow. This has little relevance to the equation. Not to discount that personal preference is important. One needn't necessarily change to a lower lip or upper lip dominant setting. The amount of upper lip vs. lower lip is like judging the iceberg from the tip appearing above water.
So my point is that the jaw positioning is the element which often REALLY figures into the question as to whether one can pull off the screamers like Brisbois or Faddis.
When the jaw is out or forward jaw embouchure setting? The lower lip guides the upper lip over a longer channel through the blow.
When the jaw is in? The lower lip's control is over a far shorter distance through this channel. This is easily observable physically. In fact if you really roll in the lower lip "on the fly" while ascending the upper lip becomes effectively alone inside the mouthpiece when above High C. This is the likely reason why receded jaw cats often cut off at High G.
So my conclusion is that those who can pull off the forward jaw setting as described in "Embouchure Self Analysis and Triple C Technique" by William Costello and Roy Stevens MUST have very supple flesh within the lower portion of their upper lip. They probably have soft flesh on the visible portion of their upper lip too.
What if these aspiring students experimenters have just normal suppleness on the lower portion of their chops? They will struggle with Stevens-Costello. Lower register, articulation and resonance problems will plague them. Most of these types will quit this technique and return to receded lower jaw settings. They have to.
My suggestion to those that try Stevens-Costello is to recommend they be honest with themselves. Decide if they're cut out for the matter. It is true that some cats are a custom fit for the technique. After all Jon Faddis, Bud Brisbois are or were "ready made customers" for the system. However these type are the minority.
And if someone finds that they are a marginal candidate for Stevens-Costello? It is my opinion that they should look into very large inner dimension custom made mouthpieces. But again only if they can attain some element of reliability from the system. By using very large inner diameter mouthpieces they may be able to offset the inadequate suppleness in the lower portion of their upper lip and open the system up. That's what i did anyway. By making the inner rim dimension very large, like alto trumpet or even trombone size they INCREASE the vibrancy factor of their upper lip several fold.
Under these circumstances one can play a Double C fairly easily on a shallow trombone mouthpieces. Though most cats wouldn't believe this let alone try it. But it works. I've done it. Sure it looks a little whacky to put a shallow trombone cup on a trumpet mouthpiece shank but there's no denying that one can sustain a fairly good volume DHC and above this way. But again who would want to go through with that effort?
Well maybe myself. That's about it.
Another point: experiment with larger inner rim dimensions on Stevens yourself if you feel like it. You might be a better candidate than me and progress faster. Opening up the Stevens embouchure may also be helped by using the tongue to push forward on the lower lip. Do this when ascending above the staff.
All said and done? MOST receded jaw trumpet players will get a bigger tone in the upper register than their forward jaw peers. The guy next to you may have an easy Double C but he won't be heard next to a well conditioned receded jaw player playing just a High C. usually that is.
Wow, that's a hell of a post. I understood it all but I know that just recently I've read others that also have information that complement what you've written that I will need to digest relative to this post. Thanks for taking the time, I appreciate it!
practice - vibrating lip ---make it look easy??? these guys are special --yes, and no. On a comeback of 3 years, if someone told me I would be able to play a DHC+ a note or two ----3 years ago. I would have laughed at them. BUT dedicated, intelligent practice -- and it could happen. My view is that most any average trumpet player can reach the High G area. I really believe that, because I am the average player. BUT -- it takes a lot of technique, energy, practice, rest, and good health. My question to most of the TM'rs watching this is ---- is it worth your time, your effort to NOT only achieve that, BUT TO SUSTAIN THAT LEVEL OF RANGE and playability????? FOR me -- the High F area - like local 357 is doable on the natural embouchure --- and above that a few notes, I believe without changing the embouchure (can, have, could , will) these are all words I use to describe that above High F (for me) -- my abilities can have me playing small riffs there -- but to have the power, reproduceable sound, and sustainability --that may be something else. THESE GUYS - making it look easy??? perhaps they have a different vibrating elasticity of their lip, some genetic variability that makes them stronger at the embouchure muscles, to recover quicker -- to sustain --- I don't know --- but I do know that most people (putting in enough time, and effort, and practice) can achieve more than they thought they could -------------can we all have a DHC??(uh yeah just the double, let's not go crazy and think the triple for this) -- I don't know --- but I would say -- even these mortal men in the video probably never dreamed they would be able to play the trumpet in such a high range -----------and I garner that was several 1000 (perhaps 10's of thousands of hours) of playing time ago -- -and perhaps even these men have achieved more than they thought they could ------------but TIME is a major factor -- I think they would agree to some extent..
I found the high g a few times without changing my set up. Just played a scale up to the high g. It was a very fat high g. Sounded like I owned it.Above the G I couldn't lock in a pitch. Sounded like I was doing a lip trill.. It has been many months and I haven't found it again. I think many more of us have those higher notes.It isn't so much about strength and power. We just haven't figured out how to let them out.
This young lady doesn't look like superman to me.
ADAM RAPA NATALIE DUNGEY DOUBLE C LESSON [HQ] - YouTube